Cruisers Forum
 


Join CruisersForum Today

Reply
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 08-10-2014, 22:45   #31
Registered User
 
2Wind's Avatar

Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 312
Re: How much gain to windward with daggerboards in a big Cat

Quote:
Originally Posted by Barra View Post
No a bit surpisingly at first take it doesnt seem to point any higher Django but it does appear that you were able to sail straight at the wind there for awhile?

The catanas Ive sailed on (40, 42 43 and 47) all point between 36 to 40 degrees apparent. Whats getting interesting in this thread is the lagoons appear to point higher per monte and 2 wind even as high as 32 degrees so CMG is actually pretty similar after the effect of the better leeway from the daggerboards of around 6 to 8 degrees.

This seems to be the case with your race Django as well

So whats going on here? The catanas have less wind drag from hull and bridgedeck design so in theory they should point higher (not just have slightly better CMG thanks to the boards). Any sailor who looks at a catana and a lagoon side by side from the bows would swear the catana would naturally point higher.

Only thing i can think is that the sail plan is holding the catana back ie my standard genoa is a 150 and stops me pointing higher than 36 degrees with any decent VMG. Its on my list to replace with something flatter, maybe even self tacking but even if i do that it seems im only going to be able to match a lagoon 440 at 32 degrees so that still seems odd...???

Have a look at the initial images of tacking tracks in this link.
Windward Performance - Genuine Tack Angles

With my 440, the 90 degree tack angle require:
1. Boat speed to ensure the mini keels are effective (6-7 kts)
2. Wind speed fast enough to permit 1. above and not too much that slippage takes place. 12-25kts seems to be best.
3. Sea state becomes an important negative at higher wind speed (greater than 20kts)
4. Current becomes an adverse factor when boat speed falls.

So like all things, I think there is a point where all these factors are optimal. When in that optimal zone, there may not be a great degree of difference between the 440 and a boat with less windage and boards, but outside this zone, the other boat will pull away.
__________________

__________________
"Second Wind"
Lagoon 440 Hull #30
Brisbane, Australia.
2Wind is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-10-2014, 23:21   #32
Registered User
 
Barra's Avatar

Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Western Australia
Boat: between boats
Posts: 808
Re: How much gain to windward with daggerboards in a big Cat

Thanks 2wind just read your link. You can pinch to 28 degrees AWA!!! I am truely flabbergasted. No way can my boat achieve that, low winds or high, calm seas or rough.

What kind of sails you got on there?
__________________

__________________
Barra is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-10-2014, 05:50   #33
Registered User

Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Winters cruising; summers Chesapeake Bay
Boat: Catana 471
Posts: 1,239
Re: How much gain to windward with daggerboards in a big Cat

Quote:
Originally Posted by Barra View Post
The catanas Ive sailed on (40, 42 43 and 47) all point between 36 to 40 degrees apparent.
Clearly there was something wrong with those boats, unless the helmsmen were footing off for better VMG in unfavorable sea states. My 471 typically gets best VMG in light to moderate seas at 28 to 32* apparent. This does require manual steering - and good, well trimmed sails, clean bottoms, etc. As the sea state picks up, I have to foot off to maintain best VMG, but rarely lower than about 35*.

Small tacking angles and high pointing ability are meaningless unless coupled with VMG. Most any sailboat can be made to point high, but this may be very slow....

Helia 44: If you really want to race your boat, I suggest you get familiar with the ratings used in your area, and the methods used to arrive at those ratings. For non-one design racing, it's all about the ratings and you can "beat" any boat with a good rating, or never beat anyone with a bad one.

2 Hulls Dave
__________________
2Hulls is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-10-2014, 09:12   #34
Senior Cruiser

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: between the devil and the deep blue sea
Boat: a sailing boat
Posts: 17,314
Re: How much gain to windward with daggerboards in a big Cat

Quote:
Originally Posted by 2Hulls View Post

(...)

Small tacking angles and high pointing ability are meaningless unless coupled with VMG.

(...)
+1!

Essential. Essential.

The Catanas possibly sailing same angles but faster thus getting to the top mark first.

Point higher and sail as fast as others or point as others and sail faster.

b.
__________________
barnakiel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-10-2014, 17:59   #35
Registered User
 
Barra's Avatar

Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Western Australia
Boat: between boats
Posts: 808
Re: How much gain to windward with daggerboards in a big Cat

Quote:
Originally Posted by 2Hulls View Post
Clearly there was something wrong with those boats, unless the helmsmen were footing off for better VMG in unfavorable sea states. My 471 typically gets best VMG in light to moderate seas at 28 to 32* apparent. This does require manual steering - and good, well trimmed sails, clean bottoms, etc. As the sea state picks up, I have to foot off to maintain best VMG, but rarely lower than about 35*.

Small tacking angles and high pointing ability are meaningless unless coupled with VMG. Most any sailboat can be made to point high, but this may be very slow....

Helia 44: If you really want to race your boat, I suggest you get familiar with the ratings used in your area, and the methods used to arrive at those ratings. For non-one design racing, it's all about the ratings and you can "beat" any boat with a good rating, or never beat anyone with a bad one.

2 Hulls Dave
Hi Dave

Yes understand the vmg issue. I can point higher than 36 but boat speed drops pretty dramatically as the 150 Genoa stops working. That seemed to be the case with the other catanas I've been on too who also sported a 150ish Genoa. What have you got on your 471 sail wise?

Also out if interest how do you set your twin mainsheet for close hauled?

Thanks

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Cruisers Sailing Forum mobile app
__________________
Barra is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-10-2014, 18:11   #36
Registered User
 
Nicholson58's Avatar

Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Live aboard
Boat: Camper & Nicholson58 Ketch - ROXY Traverse City, Michigan No.668283
Posts: 3,466
Images: 83
Re: How much gain to windward with daggerboards in a big Cat

My primary boat is a large keel boat. It has a swing CB that increases weathering ability about 5 degrees.

I also have a Tornado Cat with center boards. The lee board down makes the boat balance better (less helm), faster and the leeway is reduced about 7 degrees.

I think the sailing technology is sound. The only issue is managing the hardware as mass goes up. We seldom use the centerboard in our Camper-Nicholson Ketch. This is in great part because I do not trust the electric do-dads that must work to retrieve it. I have seen CBs that are carefully designed and balanced so that they can be run by hand winch & eyeball. I would go this way.
__________________
Nicholson58 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-10-2014, 19:28   #37
Registered User

Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Winters cruising; summers Chesapeake Bay
Boat: Catana 471
Posts: 1,239
Re: How much gain to windward with daggerboards in a big Cat

Quote:
Originally Posted by Barra View Post
I can point higher than 36 but boat speed drops pretty dramatically as the 150 Genoa stops working. That seemed to be the case with the other catanas I've been on too who also sported a 150ish Genoa. What have you got on your 471 sail wise?

Also out if interest how do you set your twin mainsheet for close hauled?
Hello Barra - the easy answers first: my genoa is approx. 140% which is the size "issued" by Catana on my vintage, pre-2002 (pre-Poncin) 471, i.e, all the 471s prior to the Ocean Class with the Solent jibs, circa 2002 and beyond. When short handed (cruising) I set the boom amidships and do not touch it tacking upwind. But when racing, I have enough crew to set the boom a bit to windward and slack the leeward sheet entering a tack to lessen the tendency for the boat to weathervane after coming about. Then we slowly sheet in the (new) windward sheet (and slack the new leeward sheet) to get the boom back a bit to weather and tighten both to remove almost all the twist. (We "shift up" for accelerating back up to speed on the new tack.)

But, IMHO, the key to windward performance whether racing or cruising is a flattened main, which (on a roachy, battened main without a rotating rig) is all about halyard tension and outhaul. The "power" of the outhaul adjustment cannot be overstated. You really have to crank it in to get a nice, flat profile. Amazingly, some cruising cats don't even have an outhaul adjustment. Off the wind the outhaul needs to be slackened to increase draft to power up the main. I've put a 2:1 block on my outhaul with reference points on the boom to better control it.

I'm not sure what you mean by the genoa "stops working" above 36* unless you mean it luffs. This is a function of sheeting angle (lack thereof) unless the sail is blown out, for which no tighter sheeting angle can help. Sail to the genoa telltails and that's the best you can do insofar as the the genoa is concerned. If you have instrumentation that feeds out VMG (all decent instruments should do this - both upwind and downwind) you can confirm what the the telltails are telling you as far as the closest apparent wind is concerned vs what you might get a little better for VMG footing off. i.e., the best VMG is typically the highest you can keep the genoa working in light to moderate seas. As sea state increases, the best VMG usually is further off the wind. ANY footing off will increase boatspeed.

Finding the "groove" for a given wind speed/sea state is an acquired taste on any specific boat. Once you get the feel, you know it without the aid of what any instruments are telling you. On cats with little heel, it's all helm feel, boat motion, and breeze on your face. Those life threatening, outboard helms are a real advantage here. If you suffer from hydraulic steering or 40-miles-of-bad-road cable steering and the "comfort" of a "protected" helm, finding the groove by feel alone is way more subtle, if not almost impossible.

Also, boats capable of exceptional windward performance cannot sail themselves. It takes a lot of helming and sail setting practice to get the most out of a good, weatherly sailing machine. A well sailed keel cat can out sail a poorly sailed board cat any day, all other things being equal. JMHO

2 Hulls Dave
__________________
2Hulls is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-10-2014, 20:14   #38
Registered User
 
Barra's Avatar

Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Western Australia
Boat: between boats
Posts: 808
Re: How much gain to windward with daggerboards in a big Cat

Thanks Dave very comprehensive reply.

What i mean by the genoa not working is yes it luffs badly higher than 36 and yes its probably blown out or poorly cut. Hard sheeted on to the spreader theres still quite a belly.

Job for next year is a new headsail.

Re the outhaul yep ive seen up around 1 knot improved boat speed playing around with it - more off the wind though. But on mine as well as the catana 42 and 431 ive sailed they tie the foot down with a band of dynema tape so to adjust the outhaul you need to loosen the band. After a few weeks sailing with the tape loose the outhaul chafes badly at the exit from the boom. not an easy fix to stop this happening. theres another post somewhere about a catana 42 chafing through theres on the delivery trip also.

If your adjusting your outhaul regularly you mustnt have that chafing problem i guess. cant recall if the 471s have the same tape at the clew?

sorry for thread drift
__________________
Barra is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-10-2014, 06:50   #39
Registered User

Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Winters cruising; summers Chesapeake Bay
Boat: Catana 471
Posts: 1,239
Re: How much gain to windward with daggerboards in a big Cat

Quote:
Originally Posted by Barra View Post
But on mine as well as the catana 42 and 431 ive sailed they tie the foot down with a band of dynema tape so to adjust the outhaul you need to loosen the band.
Hi again Barra - no I don't have the chaff problem. I do have a somewhat loose strap that holds the clew down to the boom, but this doesn't affect the outhaul at all. The strap slides along the boom with the clew as the outhaul is adjusted. The outhaul line exits the boom at the end around one of four sheaves, the other three handle the three leech reef lines. I put my 2:1 block on the clew, pass the outhaul line through it, and secure the static end of the line to the vertical padeye located just forward of the sheaves that also secures the sailbag. Before adding the 2:1 block there was no chaff issue.

Perhaps you don't have a clean exit for the outhaul line from the sheave? But it's a straight pull with no side to side angle, right? There is no reason the clew tape you describe needs to be tight to the boom, unless I'm missing something.

Quote:
sorry for thread drift
yes, suggest we take this to the "other" forum if you want to continue.

2 Hulls Dave
__________________
2Hulls is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 13-10-2014, 00:28   #40
Registered User

Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Airlie Beach
Boat: Schionning Wilderness 1320 Cheetah
Posts: 8
Re: How much gain to windward with daggerboards in a big Cat

To bad your not in Australia. We consider Catana a heavy boat. I have a Schoinning 13 metre build wieght 5500 kg (no exotic materials) stock mast 18 metres with dagger board. In Airlie Beach race week there was a Catana with boards and I was shocked on how slow it was. Both Schoinning in race week pointed higher and went faster. There are still good boats out their. Custom builds at about same cost as decked out French Cat. Dagger boards are like night and day on a catamaran. Boats with boards will point as high as most production mono's at twice the speed.
__________________
stevehalter is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 13-10-2014, 02:48   #41
Registered User
 
admiralslater's Avatar

Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: Toronto summer rest somewhere else
Boat: Outremer 45/pdq36
Posts: 679
Re: How much gain to windward with daggerboards in a big Cat

I agree with Steve , our pdq 36 equipped from the factory with boards and the difference is night and day.against cats 10 feet longer we point several degrees higher and go faster.Only on a reach do they give us a hard time . The quality of the boards is critical.Delphine races with only the lee board down to give a draft of about 7 feet ,to keep it light there is a lot carbon .it sits in a shaped trunk fitted with plastic (not sure what) runners that allow us to raise and lower the boards under full load using Anderson line drivers.
I don't think you can throw boards on a production cat and get the results you want . It needs to be planned from the start. The boat also needs to go on a diet .but that is a diffent topic
David
__________________
admiralslater is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 13-10-2014, 18:56   #42
Registered User

Join Date: Sep 2014
Posts: 214
Re: How much gain to windward with daggerboards in a big Cat

Quote:
Originally Posted by admiralslater View Post

The boat also needs to go on a diet .but that is a diffent topic
David
Heh he.... Point taken... O.P. here, Helia 44... Racing is for fun, but it is a matter of priorities I guess.. I only race for fun, a pastime as I cannot go cruising full time.. But my priority is total Cruising in major Luxury!!!

I mean I appreciate the go fast club priority. But we are in our 60's and I appreciate things like an icemaker, freezer, laundry, air conditioning, things like that. In all fairness, if the go fast club is your priority and boating is a sporting event to you.. Then no worries I think that is the issue...

For me, racing is a pass time thing. If I had to be competitive it is like the old saying "standing a cold shower in your best suit tearing up thousand dollar bills" kind of thing.. heh he.. I only do it casually. Carrying 500 kg in fuel and possibly 700 kg of water, diet is out of the question.. heh he. I mean if I am in a hurry cruising, I will turn on one or both of the engines ..

Every boat is a compromise, I get that. For me it is not a competitive issue on performance, I only do that for fun. If I ever found the Helia luxury with daggerboard racing performance, I would consider the change over. My priority is cruising in luxury so I pay the price on weight. Truth? I don't mind coming in last in the Club Races. I have the capability in the Helia to carry about two tons of luxury weight so a diet is OUT OF THE QUESTION.. heh he...

One more point: On this weight issue, pounding to windward I race against a couple of light custom Cats in the 4-5 ton range for a 35-36 foot size, when I am probably in the 12-13 ton. They get stopped by swells beating to weather where my inertia pushes through with a mush simply due to the weight. Yes they kill me off he wind, no question as they skate a way, but I almost catch them and could maybe beat them to windward in the right conditions as they are hampered by an oncoming sea... "Avalon" has done 9 knots to windward single handling, I think I could have beaten a couple of them to windward on that tack if I had crew..

As the O.P. Helia 44, I would like to THANK ALL OF YOU for your considered opinions and evidence on my question... Since we favour luxury over competition, we bought the best on the luxury scale, but I told my Wife: "If we ever see one for sale that has nearly this grade of luxury with better performance, we can change over"... Personally it seems from all I gather the daggerboards are worth a little less than I thought, over my 3 meter or so long mini-keels, maybe 5-6 degrees. I am not unhappy with our Helia. There is also something to be said about our age, in our 60's, as the dagger boards are a bit of extra work to manage..

Thanks again everyone that has contributed... Helia 44 "Avalon"
__________________
Helia 44 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14-10-2014, 00:48   #43
Registered User
 
admiralslater's Avatar

Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: Toronto summer rest somewhere else
Boat: Outremer 45/pdq36
Posts: 679
Re: How much gain to windward with daggerboards in a big Cat

I must admit I'm a little jealous of the ice maker
__________________
admiralslater is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 16-10-2014, 19:51   #44
Registered User

Join Date: Sep 2014
Posts: 214
Re: How much gain to windward with daggerboards in a big Cat

Hello Admiral,
I have been thinking this through, as I fully adapt to the Cat and the extreme luxury of my over the top equipped Helia 44, and I have come to a simple conclusion:

Now in my sixties, I am finding that for every decade of my Life, I need one more star in my accommodations and gear in Cruising.. I mean I did it tough in my twenties and thirties, but now I like the luxury end of things. Admiral, forty years of this? I am up to requiring a 4-Star Cruising yacht or not bother... I mean it is all about luxury feel in accommodations AND the bits and pieces that make it a luxury instead of suffering or camping out.

For those of you that have been around for a long time, we use to be able to define "Cruising" as: "The most expensive way in the world to travel Third Class"... Heh he.. For me now, I have spent TWICE as much as I needed to, for the LUXURY of layout that makes it better and more comfortable than any resort hotel. That and the luxury of the appointments like the ice maker, the air conditioning units, the freezer, the multiple refrigeration units, the big diesel genset plus solar, the DC water maker, laundry, these kind of things make the Lifestyle better than the $500 a night resorts!!

It is just hard to get that kind of luxury in a daggerboard equipped yacht to race, without going over the million dollar mark. For those of you that do not know, yes if you larger in size and in the 1.5 M to 2 Million mark they are out there. For me, behind my house dock, I am limited to about 48-49 feet. I also wanted a Production boat rather than deal with all the mistakes made in most one off builders designs, so it came down to a handful under a million. The French boats, the Leopards, and the Australian Lightwave were the leaders. While I have not been on one, something like the Catana in 50' and larger might be able to have the luxury and performance, but most were out of my budget...

Anyway, you can certainly do with less, but for me I now have found my cruising needs to be 4 star or not bother and would rather stay home.. I have done it tough when I was young, and I can tell you I did not like it nearly as much as now... He heh he... My only problem now is coming in late in the Club Races, so much as to hold up presentation and the bar tab.. heh he Last week I was told that with my "Handicap" I was only 2 minutes off of beating the leading Cat, a daggerboard lightweight bare bones Cat 1/3 my weight... Love that Handicap but I still have to come in sooner to be part of the bar get together with the Club racing...
The Daggerboards luxury yacht, when I find it, are still in the cards for that 15-30 minute advantage it will do.. But I will probably tune the Helia with Rig and Crew to make that up, as it will be one heck of a lot cheaper.. heh he

Kind regards, Helia.
__________________
Helia 44 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 16-10-2014, 20:16   #45
Registered User

Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Sailing the Caribbean
Boat: Switch 51
Posts: 1,498
Re: How much gain to windward with daggerboards in a big Cat

What you are missing is that a faster cat with boards will necessarily have narrower hulls and a smaller payload. You won't be able to bring all those luxuries if you really want to sail. The ones you are eyeing are only marginally faster/lighter (if at all) and really only pay lip service to performance.

Sent from my SM-T210R using Cruisers Sailing Forum mobile app
__________________

__________________
SVNeko is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
wind

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Radar Furuno M1832 trouble: too much gain? Bucaniere Marine Electronics 1 19-09-2013 10:52
Daggerboards, symmetric or asymmetric? Nordic cat Multihull Sailboats 25 20-06-2008 08:25
Need some plans or drawings for rudders and daggerboards. viking69 Multihull Sailboats 5 12-04-2008 14:03
Daggerboards. Erik C Multihull Sailboats 14 01-03-2008 13:28
replacing keels with daggerboards gramos Multihull Sailboats 51 12-12-2007 14:30



Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -7. The time now is 16:43.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.