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Old 05-10-2014, 01:36   #16
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Re: How much gain to windward with daggerboards in a big Cat

That's an interesting race. It sounds like your windward performance was very good so I can't imagine where the fleet left you to arrive 45 minutes behind. 45 degree angles at 7-9 K is pretty good in my book. Yeah it's no fun coming last but like I said, racing is about getting the best performance from your boat. What were you racing? I can't imagine many sub 40' cruising monos making better time in the conditions you describe. Btw, check your tacks with the plotter, turn on tracking and check the actual COG
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Old 06-10-2014, 19:38   #17
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Re: How much gain to windward with daggerboards in a big Cat

Well to be truthful, on a Helia 44 there is a walkway between the main winch cluster and the helm. I was standing in the walkway and cranking on the winches. In that kind of weather, it took about all I have got. I would crank on the winches and run the helm, but when I was about wore out I would switch hands and crank with the other and run the helm with the other. What happened was I would lose the rotational direction of the helm as I changed right side for left and left for right. I put her into Irons about four times and had to double tack out of it...


Anyway, yes, on a hard beat to weather the monohulls ALL beat me. If I say I lost about 5 minutes per blown tack, I was still last in by a solid 25 minutes. I could re-do some of the running rigging, longer jib tracks for a flatter and lower purchase on the working jib, that might help.. Crew might have saved another 20 minutes in smarter tacks, where I was single handling. I will try some more, but on a hard beat I was making lea way on the mini-keels. I may be able to rig good enough to come in near to the end of the Pack, and still be able to belly up to the bar.

Thank you all for your considered responses. I think I will just stay with the Helia 44 unless I stumble on some fantastic alternative that I don't know about... The Helia is so far the best I have seen.

Kind regards to all...
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Old 06-10-2014, 20:51   #18
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Re: How much gain to windward with daggerboards in a big Cat

When you find that dream Catana or Outremer send the Helia my way - at your reduced price of course ; ) The Helia looks very nice (but is heavier than the older FP's???)


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Old 06-10-2014, 21:29   #19
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Re: How much gain to windward with daggerboards in a big Cat

Hello SpinDoctor,

When you Google the Helia 44, it says 10.5 tons... I would HAVE to have two tons of luxury on with water and fuel full. I mean maybe 2.5 tons even. Now, I am adding more chain, have added a bigger main hook, and more. But a lot of my mods are not extra weight, in fact I have designed about 650 kg of savings so far. I mean I have added a freezer in place of one refrigerator unit, but no extra weight to bother counting. What I have done of merit is add an 18 amp DC Watermaker, the Spectra "Cape Horn Extreme" I think at 54 ltrs an hour off of solar, or the gen set, or the engine. I may add more solar panels, but already it will be very efficient so instead of 700 litres (kilos) of water on board I can get down to about 200 litres with the water maker, and that is a half a ton savings right there... I will be upgrading to Lithium batteries and DC to DC chargers so that will be a 150 kg weight savings, I may get it down into the 12.5 ton range...

Anyway, I really cannot tell you what one I have seen that would be a solid second place to the Helia "Maestro" version with full starboard hull Owners Cabin... I wanted near new, for the highest bridge deck clearances and technology, and a Production boat. All Customs I have seen, would have done 15 things differently if they could do it over, where a Production boat has the details worked out.. Maybe we will see better, a new Catana with forward helms or an Outremer or something? But so far in ten years of my Wife looking as She crewed on other Cats and compared to others in harbours and races and marinas, and six months of my looking as a Buyer, we have not seen better..

Kind regards, Helia 44 in Mooloolaba
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Old 07-10-2014, 02:43   #20
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Re: How much gain to windward with daggerboards in a big Cat

Hi H, regarding the tacking and sailing to windward, I don't know about the helia helm setup but I'll tell you what works for me on a lagoon 380 and 400 pretty well that you might like to try.
Sail to windward and select wind vane mode on the autopilot and adjust the angle to around 35 degrees.
Alter the course one degree at a time till optimal height and speed is achieved.
Prior to tacking make sure the lazy sheet is tight and cleated, release the working sheet cleat while it's on the winch.
Press auto tack on the pilot.
The helm will come around, and the jib starts to back wind, release the sheet and tension the new sheet, usually you can pull it by hand to within a few inches if the timing is right, tension up on the winch.
If the wind is light or you find it's not coming through the tacks fast enough, press +10 degrees on the pilot just before tacking to increase speed and tack angle, then -10 as soon as you are through the tack.
We have one electric winch so I usually run the sheet around the sheet winch and to the electric winch which is primarily for halyards.
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Old 07-10-2014, 05:12   #21
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Re: How much gain to windward with daggerboards in a big Cat

My strategy is similar to Monte.
1. When tight to windward my traveller will be 30 cm to windward, boom midline. So step one just before the auto tack is programmed, I move the traveller leadward 30cm so it is already in place when through the tack. I don't need to worry about the main any more. Also it is very easy to move it by hand as you are "releasing" it rather and loading it as you would once through the tack. This happens just 30s before the tack is initiated.
2. My auto tack is programmed for 100 degrees true to ensure the bow comes through quickly (this is adjustable in calibration mode).
3. Like Monte, I have the lazy genoa sheet tensioned on the winch ready with handle mounted.
4. Press auto tack.
5. Release the active sheet to allow the clew to come close to the mast and then hold the sheet manually using the backwind to assist with bringing the bow through the tack (especially in light wind)
6. Once through the wind, dump the previously active sheet and immediately tension the new active sheet. Agreed , if quick enough, 80% can be brought in by hand before needing the winch handle. The genoa should be trimmed in reference to the shroud within 15 seconds.
7. Then once the sails are set, I head to the helm and bring her up 10 - 20 degrees as required for 32-35 degrees apparent.
8. When you get really clever, you can minimize the number of wraps on the winch with fore-knowledge of need from the weather conditions. This reduces the chance that the "dumped" sheet maintains resistance when sheeting in the new active sheet.
All rather easy to do solo, and generally in slick time.
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Old 07-10-2014, 08:50   #22
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Re: How much gain to windward with daggerboards in a big Cat

Tracks from the recent singlehanded Round Fyn Race , 137 n. miles: # 2 is a one year old Catana 47, # 3 is me in a 8 year old Lagoon 380, #4 is a FP Maldives 32. The grey boats are monohulles, which started 1 to 3 hours before the cats. We are tacking against 5 - 8 knot Wind, and have the tide running 1 to 1½ knot against us. I dont see the daggerboard boat (Catana) pointing higher?
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Old 07-10-2014, 09:15   #23
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Re: How much gain to windward with daggerboards in a big Cat

Good stuff...was the catana under main and jib then?
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Old 07-10-2014, 09:22   #24
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Re: How much gain to windward with daggerboards in a big Cat

And this is the situation 8 hours and 30 miles later - and after 21 hours of racing... yeah, we were in the same start
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Old 07-10-2014, 09:23   #25
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Re: How much gain to windward with daggerboards in a big Cat

Quote:
Originally Posted by monte View Post
Good stuff...was the catana under main and jib then?
Main and genoa, as was I
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Old 07-10-2014, 12:32   #26
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Re: How much gain to windward with daggerboards in a big Cat

I remember reading that dagger-boards make your upwind work some 15% shorter.

But beat me with a blunt object and I cannot recall the source. Possibly the boat building (boatdesign) forum. Search there, it may crop up. Or just ask there for a decent load of facts and opinions.

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Old 07-10-2014, 13:03   #27
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Re: How much gain to windward with daggerboards in a big Cat

Guys, here's the link to that article by John Shuttleworth which explains what features on a multihull affect pointing, and how much. Multihull Design Considerations for Seaworthiness
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Old 08-10-2014, 20:05   #28
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Re: How much gain to windward with daggerboards in a big Cat

Quote:
Originally Posted by django37 View Post
Tracks from the recent singlehanded Round Fyn Race , 137 n. miles: # 2 is a one year old Catana 47, # 3 is me in a 8 year old Lagoon 380, #4 is a FP Maldives 32. The grey boats are monohulles, which started 1 to 3 hours before the cats. We are tacking against 5 - 8 knot Wind, and have the tide running 1 to 1½ knot against us. I dont see the daggerboard boat (Catana) pointing higher?
No a bit surpisingly at first take it doesnt seem to point any higher Django but it does appear that you were able to sail straight at the wind there for awhile?

The catanas Ive sailed on (40, 42 43 and 47) all point between 36 to 40 degrees apparent. Whats getting interesting in this thread is the lagoons appear to point higher per monte and 2 wind even as high as 32 degrees so CMG is actually pretty similar after the effect of the better leeway from the daggerboards of around 6 to 8 degrees.

This seems to be the case with your race Django as well

So whats going on here? The catanas have less wind drag from hull and bridgedeck design so in theory they should point higher (not just have slightly better CMG thanks to the boards). Any sailor who looks at a catana and a lagoon side by side from the bows would swear the catana would naturally point higher.

Only thing i can think is that the sail plan is holding the catana back ie my standard genoa is a 150 and stops me pointing higher than 36 degrees with any decent VMG. Its on my list to replace with something flatter, maybe even self tacking but even if i do that it seems im only going to be able to match a lagoon 440 at 32 degrees so that still seems odd...???
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Old 08-10-2014, 20:17   #29
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Re: How much gain to windward with daggerboards in a big Cat

Wow, you Guys are mind boggling, I will have to study the responses a bit. To be honest, I do not even know if my 2013 big Garmin system has the "auto-tack" feature...

Being "Old School" I was allowing the Gneerings bouy as a marker yesterday, to come past the beam, and go off the stern quarter in the race. I was guestimating about a 100 degree tack to be safe. I watched the Garmin show me accurate apparent wind angle, and I was getting down under the 45 degrees but losing forward speed. In about 20 knots apparent, I was doing sort of 6-6.5 knots to windward at the 45 degrees, and when I increased to about 50 degrees I hit 9 knots... I have to tack smarter to do an extra tack to the marker and make use of the extra speed on such a short race of only 15 nm... And, what the heck? I did not even know these new big Navs had an auto tack feature... Being a Bloke I never read Manuals until I break something...

I am going to put experienced Racing Crew on board for Sundays Club Race and see what they pick. Two commented that my main was sheeted too tight, and my tacks were $hit. Oh well, what do you want a Monohull person first (second) time racing, single handling a big Cat... Heh he//

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Old 08-10-2014, 20:44   #30
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Re: How much gain to windward with daggerboards in a big Cat

Helia is not a bad sailor. Sounds to me like you were pinching too much.

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