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View Poll Results: I am interested in how much fuel is used each year per boat
Monohull under 36 Ft less than 100 us gal. 9 39.13%
Monohull under 36 Ft more than 100 us gal. 0 0%
Monohull over 36 Ft less than 150 us gal. 3 13.04%
Monohull over36 Ft more than 150 us gal. 2 8.70%
Catamaran under 40 ft less than 200 gal. 5 21.74%
Catamaran under 40 ft more than 200 gal. 2 8.70%
Catamaran over 40 ft less than 200 gal. 0 0%
Catamaran over 40 ft more than 200 gal. 2 8.70%
Voters: 23. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 30-07-2008, 06:26   #1
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How much fuel is used each year

I would like to find out how much fuel is used each year on average by
Monohulls under 36 ft less than 100 us gall.
Monohulls under 36 ft more than 100 us gall.
Monohulls over 36 ft less than 150 us gall.
Monohulls over 36 ft more than 150 us gall.
Catamarans under 40 ft less than 200 us gall.
Catamarans under 40 ft more than 200 us gall.
Catamarans over 40 ft less than 200 us gall.
Catamarans over 40 ft more than 200 us gall.

In order to find out how much fuel can actually be saved by switching to electric propulsion



Gideon
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Old 30-07-2008, 06:38   #2
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If you don't include mileage actually sailed, and type of use then the poll can only be (mis)-used to make exorbitant savings claims for electric propulsion.

If you really want to have "Green" boats, then they need to be engineless and use no hydro-carbon based parts, sails of all natural fibres etc. All parts of course from renewable and certified sources.

One part of the electric propulsion debate that seldom gets mentioned is the cost of replacing all those batteries every 5 years or so.

cheers

Alan
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Old 30-07-2008, 07:27   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nordic cat View Post
If you don't include mileage actually sailed, and type of use then the poll can only be (mis)-used to make exorbitant savings claims for electric propulsion.

If you really want to have "Green" boats, then they need to be engineless and use no hydro-carbon based parts, sails of all natural fibres etc. All parts of course from renewable and certified sources.

One part of the electric propulsion debate that seldom gets mentioned is the cost of replacing all those batteries every 5 years or so.



cheers

Alan
The batteries we use are actually good for 10 years but we do include the total cost including maintenance, replacement of batteries , service of generators etc into the picture.
Our main reason to go electric is not only the saved costs ( if any ) but to make the fossil footprint smaller in the use of yachts. For that same reason we resin infuse to keep the resin used to the minimum.
I have actually designed a new foam infusion grid to minimize the use of resin even further and this will shave another 200 grams per m2 off the laminates weight not much but all helps.
With the Basalt fiber there is another step in the right direction (In my eyes anyway ) to make the use of fossil fuel lower. Basalt is renewable and the resin intake from basalt is also lower due to the finer strands.
We are infusing the first 455 with Basalt fiber the end of this week and I expect to use 100 kilo,s of resin less than with the use of glass.
In tests we have used as little as 30 % resin to 70 % basalt.

Greetings

Gideon

p.s
What I am trying to find out and it is hard to do so is the fuel used not to see how much can be saved in cost because I firmly believe that going electric will be more expansive but more so how much fuel can actually be saved by going electric.
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Old 30-07-2008, 07:48   #4
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I don't know just how much real world info you can acquire from your poll. When we are tied to the dock for a period of time, a tank of diesel can last a year or more. When we are cruising coastal, as we are now, we fill the tank at least once a week and when we are in areas where sailing is better we use considerably less fuel. So our answer would be some years we use 75 gallons of fuel and some years we use 400 gallons.
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Old 30-07-2008, 07:58   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chuck Baier View Post
I don't know just how much real world info you can acquire from your poll. When we are tied to the dock for a period of time, a tank of diesel can last a year or more. When we are cruising coastal, as we are now, we fill the tank at least once a week and when we are in areas where sailing is better we use considerably less fuel. So our answer would be some years we use 75 gallons of fuel and some years we use 400 gallons.
I am sure that I will not get to much real world info from this poll
I have used as much as 600 gallons a year and as little as 50 .
The general idea is how much fossil fuel on average can be saved per yacht per year and it is very hard if impossible to get any info from fuel company,s
I also do not know how many sailors actually keep track of their fuel consumption but this is one way to get a general idea

Greetings and thanks for your answer

Gideon
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Old 30-07-2008, 08:20   #6
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Gideon, I would think that fuel companies would not be able to provide any info but the manufacturers of boat similar to those you plan to build might be able to provide some baseline info and be of more value. Most engine manufacturers should also be able to provide fuel usage curves for their engines. Monohulls over 36 feet come in all sizes, engine configurations, displacements and underwater designs all affecting fuel usage.
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Old 30-07-2008, 08:57   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chuck Baier View Post
Gideon, I would think that fuel companies would not be able to provide any info but the manufacturers of boat similar to those you plan to build might be able to provide some baseline info and be of more value. Most engine manufacturers should also be able to provide fuel usage curves for their engines. Monohulls over 36 feet come in all sizes, engine configurations, displacements and underwater designs all affecting fuel usage.
Hallo Chuck

what I have been able to find out is that the average marine diesel for pleasure boats is used for around 360 hours per year.
Assuming a power setting of around 60 % so if we take a 30 Hp engine x 60 % power setting and a consumption of 220 grams per Kw per hour as both Yanmar and Volvo Penta state is their specific fuel consumption one can assume that these motors use an average of 3.6 liters per hour x 360 hours = 1296,00 liters or 360 us gallons per year
Given an average life cycle of a boat of 30 years and that is conservative the fuel that can be saved per boat is 10800 gallons = $ 48.600 with a diesel price of $ 4.50 per gallon
In Europe the savings money wise will be significantly higher since our fuel price is considerable higher and this is for a 30 hp diesel motor.It is more like $ 8.00 per us gallon here.
A Catamaran with a dual installation or a mono hull with a 60 hp engine will consume double

Greetings

Gideon
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Old 30-07-2008, 09:23   #8
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fastcat435,

I tend to agree with Chuck. Don't really know what you'd get from this poll. On my boat (36' mono) on Lake Ontario I use about 20 gallons a year. I can go all season on half a tank. On my cruising boat (39' mono) it varies from year to year. Last year the winds were favourable and we sailed most of the time but I think I ran the engine about 150 hours using about 100 gallons.

Your estimate of average use of engine per year being 360 hours seems quite high to me. The boat I cruise six months a year on has under 1000 hours on it after four seasons.
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Old 30-07-2008, 09:32   #9
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Gideon,
I am presuming that you mean for a sailboat? The work boat I run for a living uses close to 10,000 gallons per year. We need to remember that there are some people with powerboats in this forum.
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Old 30-07-2008, 09:42   #10
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double post...my apologies
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Old 30-07-2008, 09:47   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fastcat435 View Post
I would like to find out how much fuel is used each year on average by
Monohulls under 36 ft less than 100 us gall.
Monohulls under 36 ft more than 100 us gall.
Monohulls over 36 ft less than 150 us gall.
Monohulls over 36 ft more than 150 us gall.
Catamarans under 40 ft less than 200 us gall.
Catamarans under 40 ft more than 200 us gall.
Catamarans over 40 ft less than 200 us gall.
Catamarans over 40 ft more than 200 us gall.

In order to find out how much fuel can actually be saved by switching to electric propulsion



Gideon
Gideon,
I'm curious in how you would take into account in your fuel savings estimates the difference between people who use electric propulsion to get away from the dock, get clear of the breakwater and then hoist sail as opposed to those who might have to motor say for 24 hours? For the former, one might not have to run the genset at all versus the latter where one would have to run the genset continuously.

I'm no expert but it seems that the hybrid drive would be more efficient for those who only need it for relatively short periods of time. For those who need mechanical propulsion for longer periods of time it would be better to have a direct diesel drive that does not have the inefficiencies of converting mechanical energy to stored electrical energy back to mechanical energy to be used for propulsion. Is this basically right?

So for a long distance cruiser who must periodically motor for lengthy periods of time, would a Green Motion propulsion system be his best choice?

David
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Old 30-07-2008, 14:58   #12
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Who are we? Do we represent any particular segment of the sailing world? no. We are computer literate. We speak English. We have frequent access to the internet, and some of us spend way too much of each day here. And we don't mind telling the world our little secrets, or revealing our biases. We are not a fair sample of anything else. Further, When we answer a poll, we are not providing anything near factual statistical data. The number of people responding, the size of the sample is ludicrously insignificant.
But just among ourselves, and never assuming the results apply to any other person, these questions are interesting TO ME.
So why abuse Gideon for asking meaningless questions? Because we like to see our names on the little screen, and we like to argue, no matter how meaningless our objections to meaningless questions may be. We are keeping each other entertained while living if only electronically in our sailing dream world. Which probably doesn't mean the same thing to any two of us!
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Old 30-07-2008, 15:05   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David M View Post
Gideon,
I am presuming that you mean for a sailboat? The work boat I run for a living uses close to 10,000 gallons per year. We need to remember that there are some people with powerboats in this forum.
Hallo David

yes I am talking sailboats
These are by origin already green and can use a lot less fuel than any power boat.eetings

Greetings

Gideon
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Old 30-07-2008, 15:19   #14
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fastcat435,

I tend to agree with Chuck. Don't really know what you'd get from this poll. On my boat (36' mono) on Lake Ontario I use about 20 gallons a year. I can go all season on half a tank. On my cruising boat (39' mono) it varies from year to year. Last year the winds were favourable and we sailed most of the time but I think I ran the engine about 150 hours using about 100 gallons.

Your estimate of average use of engine per year being 360 hours seems quite high to me. The boat I cruise six months a year on has under 1000 hours on it after four seasons.
Hallo Vasco

averages are made up by you , me and people that sail year around or even charter boats in the carib or med that do well in excess of 1200 hours per year on engines.
Getting to know all these ( and I agree they are very rough ) number is interesting for me because at the end of the day it will tell me how much fossil fuel can be saved by switching to electric propulsion and for how many hours our system should work without any maintenance.
Thank you for participating I wish I had a better more accurate source for these figures but calling volvo penta or yanmar does not help since they will not answer any of these questions , They have no interest in any other form of propulsion than diesel or gasoline

Greetings

Gideon
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Old 30-07-2008, 15:35   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David M View Post
Gideon,
I'm curious in how you would take into account in your fuel savings estimates the difference between people who use electric propulsion to get away from the dock, get clear of the breakwater and then hoist sail as opposed to those who might have to motor say for 24 hours? For the former, one might not have to run the genset at all versus the latter where one would have to run the genset continuously.

I'm no expert but it seems that the hybrid drive would be more efficient for those who only need it for relatively short periods of time. For those who need mechanical propulsion for longer periods of time it would be better to have a direct diesel drive that does not have the inefficiencies of converting mechanical energy to stored electrical energy back to mechanical energy to be used for propulsion. Is this basically right?

So for a long distance cruiser who must periodically motor for lengthy periods of time, would a Green Motion propulsion system be his best choice?

David
Hallo David
at the end of this year we will have tested the |Green Motion system on a FastCat 455 and we already have fuel consumption figures for the diesel driven versions so it will be easy to compare and see what type will come out better.
I expect that the Green Motion version will use considerable less fuel when motoring at speeds of 50 to 80 % of hull speed.
Than with the possibility of regeneration while sailing should find additional savings.
Assuming that with normal sailing days we leave a harbour and motor for a max of one hour and than start sailing , no diesel generator will be used at all since the green motion system will regenerate the battery to their full state.
When at anchor or in a harbour without shore power , the solar panels and wind generation system will keep the battery's topped up and in a harbour with shore power the same can be achieved with shore power.
In long distance cruising when no wind is present the generator will be used to propel the boat. Even here the solar and wind generators will assist the diesel generator so it will consume less.
When the generator is used it will drive the motors and any excess electricity is used to charge the batteries. When these are full the generator will switch of.
Next year I will inform you of the actual fuel saved with this system.


Greetings
Gideon
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