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Old 30-12-2015, 07:53   #76
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Re: How much can I responsibly afford to spend?

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Originally Posted by rabbi View Post
BTW: I guess Vetcor is gone by now, last activity was 15th dec.
Rabbi - I'm still here, following the thread. The end of the year tends to be a busy time for me, and I'm currently traveling, so I've had less time to participate.

Since a number of posts have turned to boat selection, I'll note that I want a catamaran, but I struggle with the balance between comfort and performance. I do intend to spend most of my time sailing and do not anticipate a lot of time in marinas - so my objective is to find a vessel that has the right balance between these two criteria.

Thanks again to all who have shared their thoughts.
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Old 30-12-2015, 08:05   #77
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Re: How much can I responsibly afford to spend?

The performance/comfort compromise is reached through Size, and light (expensive) design.

Trimaran would be my choice for a truly exhilarating boat, though....(my opinion)
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Old 30-12-2015, 09:06   #78
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Re: How much can I responsibly afford to spend?

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Originally Posted by D-Vector View Post
Rabbi - I'm still here, following the thread. The end of the year tends to be a busy time for me, and I'm currently traveling, so I've had less time to participate.
Good to know, often a similar question is asked and the threadstarter just disappears

Quote:
Originally Posted by D-Vector View Post
Since a number of posts have turned to boat selection, I'll note that I want a catamaran, but I struggle with the balance between comfort and performance. I do intend to spend most of my time sailing and do not anticipate a lot of time in marinas - so my objective is to find a vessel that has the right balance between these two criteria.
Even if you do not go into Marinas you will still spend most of the time at anchor. Most cruisers spend less than 10% of the time actually sailing.
If you buy a performance cat, you can cut that sailing time in half making this 95% at anchor :-)


Really, get onto a few boats of different sizes and see what you really need vs. nice to have and then look at the price tag to make a decision: Frugal or luxury.
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Old 30-12-2015, 15:59   #79
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Re: How much can I responsibly afford to spend?

That 34' SPC is nice, but way all overpriced.

35k us$
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Old 30-12-2015, 16:15   #80
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Re: How much can I responsibly afford to spend?

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Originally Posted by TheThunderbird View Post
The performance/comfort compromise is reached through Size, and light (expensive) design.

Trimaran would be my choice for a truly exhilarating boat, though....(my opinion)
My choice for sea kindliness. A bunch of negatives Space, slips, haul out. I've had two.
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Old 30-12-2015, 16:27   #81
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Re: How much can I responsibly afford to spend?

Quote:
Originally Posted by D-Vector View Post
Rabbi - I'm still here, following the thread. The end of the year tends to be a busy time for me, and I'm currently traveling, so I've had less time to participate.

Since a number of posts have turned to boat selection, I'll note that I want a catamaran, but I struggle with the balance between comfort and performance. I do intend to spend most of my time sailing and do not anticipate a lot of time in marinas - so my objective is to find a vessel that has the right balance between these two criteria.

Thanks again to all who have shared their thoughts.
Both comfort and performance are relative terms. Unless you are only doing passages or races I doubt you will spend most of your time sailing. On the other hand it may well be that you will spend more time anchored than in a marina.

Also keep in mind for many folks time spent in marinas is to maintain their boat. I have been lucky in that my boat has been easy to maintain, at least when compared to some of my friends.

My experience has been that the biggest factor in performance is the skipper/crew. No question in my mind Dennis Connor could out sail me with a lesser boat. For cats things like a screecher on a bow sprit and a square top main will increase the performance. I also thing using outboards that lift up will make the bottom cleaner and increase performance and are easier to maintain. On the other hand if you are motoring or motor sailing a lot inboards will provide a longer range with the same amount of gas.

Comfort to some extent depends on where you will be sailing. In a hotter climate an open air design will allow better air circulation, till it gets so hot you may want an AC, at which point good insulation will be more important. Good insulation is also important in colder sailing areas. How the boat rides both moving and at anchor is also a consideration. All else being equal a bigger boat will be more comfortable, until it gets too big to comfortably handle.

There are also personal evaluations of comfort. You (or your admiral) are the best judge of how comfortable a bunk, seat in the salon, or the steering station is. Same goes for things like laying on the tramps while sailing in a light breeze. To some extent this is also true of the motion of the boat while sailing or at anchor. You simply have to get on the boat and try it out.

One thing some folks don't always realize is how comfort is related to other things. Sailing a boat with a heavy weather helm and having to anchor with no windless after dealing with raising and lowering poorly laid out sails and running rigging may well mean you will not be comfortable in an air conditioned feather bed in a spacious cabin.

Walking the docks and talking to folks who own boats may well get you invited to check out what I will call boats that are being lived on. Often offering to buy a pizza and drinks will get you a ride.
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Old 30-12-2015, 16:43   #82
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Re: How much can I responsibly afford to spend?

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Originally Posted by tomfl View Post
Both comfort and performance are relative terms. Unless you are only doing passages or races I doubt you will spend most of your time sailing. On the other hand it may well be that you will spend more time anchored than in a marina.



Also keep in mind for many folks time spent in marinas is to maintain their boat. I have been lucky in that my boat has been easy to maintain, at least when compared to some of my friends.



My experience has been that the biggest factor in performance is the skipper/crew. No question in my mind Dennis Connor could out sail me with a lesser boat. For cats things like a screecher on a bow sprit and a square top main will increase the performance. I also thing using outboards that lift up will make the bottom cleaner and increase performance and are easier to maintain. On the other hand if you are motoring or motor sailing a lot inboards will provide a longer range with the same amount of gas.



Comfort to some extent depends on where you will be sailing. In a hotter climate an open air design will allow better air circulation, till it gets so hot you may want an AC, at which point good insulation will be more important. Good insulation is also important in colder sailing areas. How the boat rides both moving and at anchor is also a consideration. All else being equal a bigger boat will be more comfortable, until it gets too big to comfortably handle.



There are also personal evaluations of comfort. You (or your admiral) are the best judge of how comfortable a bunk, seat in the salon, or the steering station is. Same goes for things like laying on the tramps while sailing in a light breeze. To some extent this is also true of the motion of the boat while sailing or at anchor. You simply have to get on the boat and try it out.



One thing some folks don't always realize is how comfort is related to other things. Sailing a boat with a heavy weather helm and having to anchor with no windless after dealing with raising and lowering poorly laid out sails and running rigging may well mean you will not be comfortable in an air conditioned feather bed in a spacious cabin.



Walking the docks and talking to folks who own boats may well get you invited to check out what I will call boats that are being lived on. Often offering to buy a pizza and drinks will get you a ride.

Tom you made a great point, the motion of the boat while sailing and at anchor makes a huge difference to the comfort of a boat. You may own the Taj Mahal of boats as far as comfortable interiors, but if the motion is bad the boat won't be comfortable. We have owned quite a few cats around the same size and some have had a great motion, others not so and I still can't come up with a reason design wise that would make the difference.


Sent from my iPhone using Cruisers Sailing Forum
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Old 30-12-2015, 22:45   #83
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Re: How much can I responsibly afford to spend?

Hello D,

I've been lurking around this forum for a few years now and have come to my own conclusions about what I love and want. I won't bore you with reminding you that everything is a gray area and everything is relative, etc. etc. Here's how I would play it. I would go after a relatively new (less than 5 years old) boat, that has been outfitted for blue water cruising. That means it's got all the gadgets and gear you might need (solar, electronics, sails, etc.) and it's done some time already so it's beaten out many of its initial malfunctions and already dropped the initial loss a new boat has in the first few years regarding resale value. Newer boats are nicer in general and they have the advantage of continuously upgraded technology that makes sailing easier, safer, and more comfortable (like the fact that old cats used to have "slamming" problems that newer cats have a bit less of). They also have less of the interior funky stinky nasty that some old boats can get. I would be looking in the 38 to 45 foot range, which seems to be the sweet spot for most people. I like fast boats, but if you carry a lot of crap, you lose speed. Still, I prefer Leopards and Fountaine Pajots, (just from my experience) and I have a craving for some of the really face racer/cruisers like Schionning designed one-offs (meaning not a production boat), but I wouldn't really recommend those. With a production boat, like a Lagoon (not my favorite, but TONS of them on the water and lots of miles sailed), FP, Leopard (tons of them come out of charter since they are the supplier for The Moorings charter company), Seawind (expensive but loved), Nautitech, etc. you have the benefit of lots of people who can help you, lots of parts, plenty of online videos to fix things, etc. I like boats with owner's version setups, which means one side is all one suite with a bigger head, shower, etc. and usually the other side is two suites and two heads. A really great big bathroom with a separate, glassed-in shower is nice on a boat and makes living a lot easier, especially if you have female company. Everyone knows you spend a lot of time at anchor hanging out and more time motoring than you ever thought you would. Those things are true. You can get a boat out of charter, as long as you are very thorough about having it checked and fitted. Lots of people here are sticklers for boats that were only owned privately, which usually means less wear. Look for a meticulous owner. I'd say you're in for about 200 to 400k for a boat in the range I'm talking about. I don't suggest anything smaller than 38 or bigger than 45. Self tacking jibs save you some trouble. Electric winches make life a lot easier for single-handed sailors, and you don't have to worry too much about downwind sails like spinnakers unless you're out far and long and know what you're doing. Newer sails are good. Count on way more money than you thought in repairs, and carry a pile of extra gps's, safety gear, and radios and you'll be fine. Get a great freezer and blender. Boat drinks are nice. Sail in the Carib for a year and you'll get some miles and find out if you're a blue water guy or an island hopper. Here's a search on yachtworld for what I suggested (2011 and newer, sorted by ascending price, multihulls (I would never consider a monohull at all). Good luck and smooth sailing. 2011 (Sail) Catamaran Boats For Sale
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Old 31-12-2015, 03:05   #84
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Re: How much can I responsibly afford to spend?

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...Electric winches make life a lot easier for single-handed sailors, and you don't have to worry too much about downwind sails like spinnakers unless you're out far and long and know what you're doing.
I don't get that electric winch thing. An average Joe should have no problem to raise a main on a 40ft cat by hand with a double purchase so the winch is only needed for tension. Average Jane maybe not.
We had an electric winch on our previous boat and it was only good to get me hauled up the mast and to damage the sails and sheaves.


Symmetric spinnakers can be a handfull of work but an asymmetric with a sock is a piece of cake even singlehanded. I would not want to do any downwind passage without it.
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Old 31-12-2015, 03:30   #85
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Re: How much can I responsibly afford to spend?

I find like this thread is a bit about venting own dreams, or philosophical speculation....

I am surprised that so many add their wisdom to a quite blurred idea...

Life is not exact science, and we enjoy making little relevant mistakes, all the time...till the end of the year...


PS
From 38' to 45' you double displacement, more than double purchase price when new, and face +60% in running costs...

Only after a tragedy a really dedicated owner would sell a tip-top boat in 3-5 year time
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Old 01-01-2016, 13:07   #86
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Re: How much can I responsibly afford to spend?

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PS
From 38' to 45' you double displacement, more than double purchase price when new, and face +60% in running costs...

Only after a tragedy a really dedicated owner would sell a tip-top boat in 3-5 year time

Hi Thunderbird, When you say you double the purchase price, what did you mean? Double over what?

Also, I think plenty of people sell boats in a few years. They don't use them as much as they thought, they need their money out, the dream didn't work out. etc. etc.
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Old 06-01-2016, 13:52   #87
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Re: How much can I responsibly afford to spend?

If I was looking at a new cat, I'd consider the Fountaine-Pajot Lucia 40 that just came out. about 380k before options.
Lucia 40 | Fountaine Pajot
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Old 06-01-2016, 14:20   #88
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Re: How much can I responsibly afford to spend?

D-Vector:

There are alot of people who have boats and no one to sail them with. If I was in your situation -- defined as new to boat ownership, steady income, ready to up and leave I would just start making myself avaiable to sail other peoples boats. I would concentrate on people with boats that you would consider buying.

Reasoning is this -- you will get to try before you buy, you will get a chance to experience the lifestyle, you will learn how much work is involved. After a few months or myabe a year of this I think you will be in a better position to figure out what it is you want to do with your new lifestyle and define waht sailing means to you.

For me with that kind of money and I am near that I would buy two boats. Position one in the Med and the other in the Carrabean or Mexico and split time between them.

Good luck and Fairwinds
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Old 16-02-2016, 11:10   #89
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Re: How much can I responsibly afford to spend?

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D-Vector:

There are alot of people who have boats and no one to sail them with. If I was in your situation -- defined as new to boat ownership, steady income, ready to up and leave I would just start making myself avaiable to sail other peoples boats. I would concentrate on people with boats that you would consider buying.

Reasoning is this -- you will get to try before you buy, you will get a chance to experience the lifestyle, you will learn how much work is involved. After a few months or myabe a year of this I think you will be in a better position to figure out what it is you want to do with your new lifestyle and define waht sailing means to you.
I agree completely with Charlie on this point, and have thought many times that I will take this approach before purchasing anything. For an inexperienced person like myself, I think it's the only reasonable/responsible path towards ownership, especially since I am considering adopting a completely new lifestyle and spending a significant portion of my savings in the process.

Previous point notwithstanding, I just returned from Strictly Sail Miami. In addition to the joy of attending a boat show (my first), I wanted to see the yachts I've read about in person and get a closer look at the vessels I might consider chartering while I'm still working. I also learned what piques my interest.

As an aside, I don't think I mentioned anything about timing in my previous posts. I do project work, and am currently engaged for the next 6-24 months. When this project ends, I'm not planning to take any additional work, and will move forward with this seemingly-crazy dream of mine. Again, my likely path will be to volunteer as crew aboard some boats that are similar to those I might consider owning one day. I've already browsed this forum for opportunities, and it seems like I could find something that will work, provided someone will take a novice like me.

Regarding the show, the two vessels that really caught my eye were the new Lagoon 42 and the Outeremer 45. While these boats are geared towards two different buyers, I can see the merit to both. I really appreciated the way the Lagoon lived - the cockpit design and access off the rear platform is fantastic, and the berths are more comfortable than those in the Lagoon 450, which I chartered last year. The Outremer just looked fast, seemed well-built, and is ostensibly an amazing blue water vessel - with slight compromises vis-a-vis comfort versus the Lagoon. Among other things, the difference between the two made me realize that my eventual selection of a vessel will be a function of the way I intend to live and sail once aboard - and I don't yet know exactly what that looks like.

Thanks again to all who have responded to this thread with constructive posts. I really appreciate your input.
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Old 16-02-2016, 13:05   #90
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Re: How much can I responsibly afford to spend?

Really a good boat like a leopar39-40 is roughly 250K to get ti in pristine condition figure another 50K
Then your monthly expenses
So that is a rough ball park
That is basically what I did.
Any more questions PM me
Good Luck
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