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Old 26-09-2017, 03:38   #1
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How do these cats look?

Hi everyone, my partner and 2 kids (6 & 8) are (still) looking for our sailboat to start our journey North to Asia and beyond. We live in Newcastle and are looking to leave early 2018, maybe April or May.

We have a budget of $200k for boat and refit and our preference is for a catamaran. We have recently noticed a couple advertised up in Qld that I would love to get your opinion on.

The first is a 1990 40ft Grainger $219k that looks nice and clean and well cared for, in Mackay. I spoke with the owner who says it does not need anything done to it unless we wanted separate beds for the kids. It got an engine upgrade in 2009 and the rigging was replaced in June 2017. Oh and it doesnít have an oven, which I think we would want.
Grainger

The second is a 1997 43ft Tasman Elite $185k, in Cairns. It is a little bigger but I donít think it is as ready as the Grainger. It is listed $35k cheaper, but if I have to put that much more money into the refit, then I donít think it would be worth it. Though it does have an extra cabin, and an oven.
Tasman Elite

Anyway, does anyone have any insights and opinions on the above boats? The other issue is that they are so far away I canít just duck up to have a look, so if anyone is in the area and wouldnít mind having a look for me that would be awesome

Thanks again you wonderful people!
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Old 26-09-2017, 05:05   #2
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Re: How do these cats look?

The Tasman bridgedeck clearance looked pretty low. I think the Grainger would perform better and have better resale and perhaps even be an easier sale. It looks in great condition.

The Grainger looks to me to be better value than the Tasman and I'd prefer it.
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Old 26-09-2017, 13:30   #3
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Re: How do these cats look?

Not good.

The Grainger has been doctored.
H U G E stern extensions added.
Email Grainger and ask if he OK'd the changes.

Looks like a pretty short boat originally judging from the picture and from the beam measurement. would be interesting to know if it was a full cabin design originally.
Do post if you find out. Very interesting.


The Elites have issues as pointed out by above poster.

You can do much better for the money.
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Old 26-09-2017, 13:35   #4
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Re: How do these cats look?

Neither
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Old 26-09-2017, 14:45   #5
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Re: How do these cats look?

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You can do much better for the money.

Could you point me to some examples please?
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Old 26-09-2017, 14:45   #6
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Re: How do these cats look?

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Neither

Any reasons why?
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Old 26-09-2017, 15:00   #7
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Re: How do these cats look?

I will come out straight and say I don't really like Tasmans, apart for the Roger Hill designed 35, which still doesn;t have much bridgdeck clearance.

As Seaslug says the "Grainger" has been added to quite a bit. The stern extensions and the addition of a bulb on the bow all point to me about a problem with carrying weight. The boat does look well appointed but I would not recommend you buying a boat that is already well down on its lines, or sitting on them without a families gear on board.

My 38ft Chamberlin looks pretty silly on the mooring right now - it is showing about 12 cm of antifoul. The sterns are about 6 cm clear of the water but when we go cruising she comes right back down. Especially with kids. You can't get around basic physics and you need to buy a boat that has enough reserve volume to take at least 1500 - 2000 kg payload.

The waterplane area of one of my cat hulls is 9.08 metres squared at DWL. This means it takes about 90.8 kg to depress each 1cm - so 180kg per cm for the whole boat. So if I put 2000kg on the boat it will go down about 11 cm.

So do you weight tally of stuff like fuel, water, clothes, books, bedding, toys, extra anchors and chain, spares, tools, extra outboard, spare dinghy paddle boards, kite surf gear, bikes, rock collection et al and it will come close to 2000kg for a family. We were probably 1500kg most of the time. So you need a boat that has 8cm of extra freeboard before it gets to designed cruising lines. And only if it is the same as my cat. The Grainger would need to be a lot higher as the hulls are thinner so it strikes out there.

As to the Grainger's pedigree, I can't see it easily. It may have once been a small early Grainger made from Durakore but it is not a Chincogan 40 or stretched Mystery Cove 38.

If you like, come and have a look over Kankama. We are on the lake and I am on holidays now so I can give you a tour around her. PM me.

cheers

Phil
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Old 26-09-2017, 16:05   #8
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Re: How do these cats look?

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Could you point me to some examples please?

Looks like it's slim pickings for <$200,000 catamarans on Australia, on yachtworld anyway. There's an Oram, a couple of Easys. All of those are likely home builds and, though fine designs, quality may not be great.

Where might you be willing to travel to in order to find a <$200,000 boat? They're out there.
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Old 26-09-2017, 16:23   #9
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Re: How do these cats look?

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Where might you be willing to travel to in order to find a <$200,000 boat? They're out there.
We have flirted with the idea of starting elsewhere, but it just feels so much more complicated to buy and prepare the boat in a foreign country. If we can find something local instead it would be for the best I think.
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Old 26-09-2017, 16:29   #10
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Re: How do these cats look?

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We have flirted with the idea of starting elsewhere, but it just feels so much more complicated to buy and prepare the boat in a foreign country. If we can find something local instead it would be for the best I think.
Tony is responsive to emails; graingerdesigns@gmail.com

He'll know the boat and be able to help.
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Old 26-09-2017, 16:50   #11
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Re: How do these cats look?

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Tony is responsive to emails; graingerdesigns@gmail.com

He'll know the boat and be able to help.
Thanks, I've emailed him.
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Old 26-09-2017, 17:00   #12
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Re: How do these cats look?

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Thanks, I've emailed him.
Good luck!

If it is a stretch then the important thing is that it's still balanced per the design and the weight is still reasonable for the new length.

Edited to add: the underwater shape of the extensions is obviously also important and should continue the lines of the boat.
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Old 26-09-2017, 20:37   #13
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Re: How do these cats look?

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Good luck!

If it is a stretch then the important thing is that it's still balanced per the design and the weight is still reasonable for the new length.

Edited to add: the underwater shape of the extensions is obviously also important and should continue the lines of the boat.
Actually an extension will not do much to help float a boat which is below its lines if it is a continuation of the hull lines. Better to start way ahead of the transom and foam up the upsweep as well. The Tasman in this thread has also has a stern extension which still immerses the transoms very heavily. Not good design. Have a look at the pic on the slips.

Remember, a stern extension to smooth wake is fine but to try and increase flotation without going forward of the transom and foaming up the aft sections will have very little effect. Its all about volume underwater and you
can't beat the physics. The amount of extra volume in an add on extension is pretty tiny.

Have a look at the Grainger 40 (Perry 40, Seawind 1200 are the same boat). You will see that it is 40ft. Well it wasn't originally, it started out as the Azure 37, and Grainger got the weight wrong. Everybody does as it is hard to work out what owners will do to your designs.

So they added 3ft to the mould and it didn't float the boat level. If you look at the chamfer panels and bridgedeck floor of the 40ft versions you will still see them sloping back aft. BUT the wake is smoother and the boat looks nicer with transoms not immersed. Extensions show where designers and owners got their dialogue wrong, only a few really fix the problem.

I met a bloke who actually put new hulls under the hulls of his 13.5m cat. Lots of work but the only way fix his lack of volume issue. Best way - don't cruise a boat that has a lack of volume problem - walk away.
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Old 26-09-2017, 20:45   #14
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Re: How do these cats look?

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Actually an extension will not do much to help float a boat which is below its lines if it is a continuation of the hull lines. Better to start way ahead of the transom and foam up the upsweep as well. The Tasman in this thread has also has a stern extension which still immerses the transoms very heavily. Not good design. Have a look at the pic on the slips.



Remember, a stern extension to smooth wake is fine but to try and increase flotation without going forward of the transom and foaming up the aft sections will have very little effect. Its all about volume underwater and you

can't beat the physics. The amount of extra volume in an add on extension is pretty tiny.



Have a look at the Grainger 40 (Perry 40, Seawind 1200 are the same boat). You will see that it is 40ft. Well it wasn't originally, it started out as the Azure 37, and Grainger got the weight wrong. Everybody does as it is hard to work out what owners will do to your designs.



So they added 3ft to the mould and it didn't float the boat level. If you look at the chamfer panels and bridgedeck floor of the 40ft versions you will still see them sloping back aft. BUT the wake is smoother and the boat looks nicer with transoms not immersed. Extensions show where designers and owners got their dialogue wrong, only a few really fix the problem.



I met a bloke who actually put new hulls under the hulls of his 13.5m cat. Lots of work but the only way fix his lack of volume issue. Best way - don't cruise a boat that has a lack of volume problem - walk away.


Oh sure, I agree. That's why I think balance and weight are just as important. I guess I wasn't very clear.

If you want extended hills on a design, it's best that the designer designs the length in before build. Which is what I hope to do.

The check for this will be Tony's view on the boat.
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Old 27-09-2017, 01:23   #15
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Re: How do these cats look?

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Could you point me to some examples please?
OK just let me find my flak jacket first.

I don't know what experience you have. A performance boat that is also capable of cruising with a family of four aboard , sub 12meters is going to be pretty much impossible to find. As Catsketcher says you need a boat that is capable of carrying a load.

For low maintenance and reasonable resale try buying a production grp/foam boat. If your not good on the tools avoid ply and balsa ,amateur built stuff can be a bit hit and miss.

Sub $200 K try a Chamberlain Parrallax 38? (NOT THE CORSAIR 3600 style sometimes known as a Parralax but the earlier ones), The Simpson Cloud 12 (these have reasonable BD clearance, or the Simpson Inspiration 10.5 (friends , family of 4 cruised this design for many years) , you should have enough left over for some repairss/upgrades. A USED BOAT IS GOING TO NEED STUFF REPLACING.

All boats mentioned were production Aus boats and will tidy up well with a little effort.
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