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Old 23-12-2015, 17:29   #106
pbr
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Re: Helm positions

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Originally Posted by 2Hulls View Post
Except when they're the most popular seats on the boat.

Preferences. Just preferences. They may not be your's, but it's best to refrain from speaking for others.

Dave
Dave, this is a forum where people offer their opinions, that's the way it works, I have never implied or intended to speak for others including you. I have just as much right to say what I think is best as you do without the politically correct police jumping into action. Why is it when I give my opinion I'm speaking for others, but when you do your not? Why didn't you pass on your advice to our Australian friend when he said people with bulkhead steering were "punters"?
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Old 23-12-2015, 17:43   #107
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Re: Helm positions

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Originally Posted by StuM View Post
There are two types of weather that you need protection from:
1. Cold and wet.
2. Tropical sunny days.

If you sail in the tropics, exposed outboard helms are NOT a pleasant place to sit for long periods in either situation.

You are probably correct when it comes to sun exposure, but I'm guessing you probably get more breeze when placed at the outboard helm?
All a matter of opinion. The bulkhead helms are pretty well protected, but from experience it's like driving a bus. The outboard helms don't offer as much protection from the elements, but then again you get a better feel for the boat while steering. The answer? Well obviously the Outremer, as they have the bulkhead steering for days you want protection but they also have the tillers, for those perfect sailing days.


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Old 23-12-2015, 17:56   #108
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Re: Helm positions

Quote:
Originally Posted by 2Hulls View Post
Except when they're the most popular seats on the boat.

Preferences. Just preferences. They may not be your's, but it's best to refrain from speaking for others.

Dave
As someone who has worked and lived in the tropics for over 30 years, that photo horrifies me.

I'd give the girl on the port helm 2 max hours to get badly burned judging by her skin colour, even if she is plastered with SF50+.

And are you familiar with skin cancer?
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Old 23-12-2015, 18:01   #109
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Re: Helm positions

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Originally Posted by StuM View Post
As someone who has worked and lived in the tropics for over 30 years, that photo horrifies me.

I'd give the girl on the port helm 2 max hours to get badly burned judging by her skin colour, even if she is plastered with SF50+.

And are you familiar with skin cancer?
Yea and on the other side, how about if it was 50 degrees and blowing twenty? Throw in a little driving rain, and who would want to sit out there for more than 5 minutes?
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Old 23-12-2015, 18:04   #110
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Re: Helm positions

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Originally Posted by pbr View Post
Dave, this is a forum where people offer their opinions, that's the way it works, I have never implied or intended to speak for others including you. I have just as much right to say what I think is best as you do without the politically correct police jumping into action. Why is it when I give my opinion I'm speaking for others, but when you do your not? Why didn't you pass on your advice to our Australian friend when he said people with bulkhead steering were "punters"?
Yes you did though thats why you got the responses you did.

You framed you opinion as that of "anyone who cruises for extended periods" or words to that effect. Thereby excluding anyone who didnt agree with your opinion as that of some kind of a pretend cruiser or had rocks in their heads or something.

You then back tracked a bit by saying it was the market feedback you got. But dont you see mate by being one design builder the market you see is self defining. A punter (not really derogatory here at least) that wants outboard helms is not going to come to a manta builder and say give me outboard helms are they - they are gonna go elsewhere. Your "market" is just a segment of the total cruising cat market.

You then pointed at things like the Bali line to justify where you thought the market was going. Again just a segment and most hope you are wrong on that front.

None of the replies you got that I read anyway said they spoke for all cruisers they just pointed out they had different preferences to your customers and why that was so.

Anyway this thread is done to death again with the same result as before - those with twin aft helms point out why they like em and some of the more dyed in the wool "real" cruisers tell us we are all nuts.

Refreshingly this time some others chimed in with an appreciation for both designs and we all agree flybridge helms are the worst so lets beat up on them eh?

merry xmas
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Old 23-12-2015, 18:08   #111
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Re: Helm positions

When I started this post I thought it was pretty innocuous .OOPs
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Old 23-12-2015, 18:09   #112
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Re: Helm positions

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Originally Posted by StuM View Post
As someone who has worked and lived in the tropics for over 30 years, that photo horrifies me.

I'd give the girl on the port helm 2 max hours to get badly burned judging by her skin colour, even if she is plastered with SF50+.

And are you familiar with skin cancer?
All right i have to bight again -

YOU DONT HAVE TO STAND WATCH AT THE HELM IF YOU DONT WANT TO!

Autopilot lets you sit under cover and still keep a good lookout on most designs. Its just a mindset from those that associate the helm with all watchkeeping.

Yes rarely you might have to stand watch at the helm to handsteer when conditions are not ideal but lets be honest what % of sailing time is that? Generously I would say 5%.

rest of the time its optional.
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Old 23-12-2015, 18:22   #113
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Re: Helm positions

Seems as if Catana is still producing their outboard helm boats, yet Manta is no longer being built. Don't get me wrong, there were a lot of things I liked about the Mantas and also quite a few things I didn't like. They had a great design, but sadly it was a complete ripoff from a Lerouge design from which he was never compensated. The Manta was an older design and maybe they could have benefited from some newer ideas, but it was designed as a true couples cruiser, no thought given to charter. But then again, I don't believe the Catana is oriented around the charter industry yet they are still in production.


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Old 23-12-2015, 18:22   #114
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Re: Helm positions

Great pic Dave. Looks like another benefit of duel helms is being able to teach hands on helmsmanship!
Pbr, don't be too offended by the term punter. It's Aussie colloquial slang for anyone, a customer, your average citizen (sometimes a gambler) etc. maybe it means something else in your neck of the woods, but I doubt it was intended as a derogatory comment.
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Old 23-12-2015, 18:32   #115
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Re: Helm positions

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Yes you did though thats why you got the responses you did.

You framed you opinion as that of "anyone who cruises for extended periods" or words to that effect. Thereby excluding anyone who didnt agree with your opinion as that of some kind of a pretend cruiser or had rocks in their heads or something.

You then back tracked a bit by saying it was the market feedback you got. But dont you see mate by being one design builder the market you see is self defining. A punter (not really derogatory here at least) that wants outboard helms is not going to come to a manta builder and say give me outboard helms are they - they are gonna go elsewhere. Your "market" is just a segment of the total cruising cat market.

You then pointed at things like the Bali line to justify where you thought the market was going. Again just a segment and most hope you are wrong on that front.

None of the replies you got that I read anyway said they spoke for all cruisers they just pointed out they had different preferences to your customers and why that was so.

Anyway this thread is done to death again with the same result as before - those with twin aft helms point out why they like em and some of the more dyed in the wool "real" cruisers tell us we are all nuts.

Refreshingly this time some others chimed in with an appreciation for both designs and we all agree flybridge helms are the worst so lets beat up on them eh?

merry xmas
Sorry but that is total bilge and hypocritical.
Calling people "punter's" is not derogatory? Evidently not if it supports your position. The fact that I built boats in the past that had bulkhead steering has nothing to do with my opinion of the best arrangement today.

All those words you are so conveniently reading into what I was saying is total B.S. As far as I am concerned it was your own insecurity about defending what you sail and own. Others have chimed in with positions for bulkhead steering even stronger than mine and you haven't accused them of implying anything.

I developed and built the first and only U.S. manufactured catamaran over 33 ft. 25 yrs ago, we were the only U.S. builder for over a decade, and it was and still is a very successful and popular brand and design. I have talked to probably thousands of potential buyers, so I think I am pretty qualified to speak for the market as I know it. If you want to check my credentials please feel free to go to my website www.hytechmarine.com

As I said before when it comes to the best arrangement for CRUISING, without any question I advocate 1. Bulkhead mounted, 2. Raised or flybridge and distant last, outboard exposed helms. So let me make this disclaimer for your to understand, THIS IS MY OPINION, I AM NOT SPEAKING FOR YOU OR ANYONE ELSE.
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Old 23-12-2015, 18:32   #116
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Re: Helm positions

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Originally Posted by pbr View Post
Dave, this is a forum where people offer their opinions, that's the way it works, I have never implied or intended to speak for others including you.
Seriously?

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Originally Posted by pbr View Post
Anyone that has done any amount of cruising, particularly in varying climates, pretty quickly figures out they want to be protected from the elements when standing watch at the helm.
How is that statement not speaking for others??? How do you know where or when "anyone" wants protection from anything, other than yourself? And why is watch standing limited to the helm?

Again, preferences. Just preferences. They may not be your's, but it's best to refrain from speaking for others.

Forums suffer from being limited to the written word which, in my view, limits the intended thoughts of the participants to the constraints of their writing skills. The nuances ever present in face to face communication cannot be employed. I conclude this limitation has been detrimental so far in these exchanges with you and had this "conversation" taken place over a rum that the interchange would have been more pleasant and productive.

Dave
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Old 23-12-2015, 18:36   #117
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Re: Helm positions

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Originally Posted by pbr View Post
Sorry Dave but that is total bilge and hypocritical.
Calling people "punter's" is not derogatory? Evidently not if it supports your position. The fact that I built boats in the past that had bulkhead steering has nothing to do with my opinion of the best arrangement today.

All those words you are so conveniently reading into what I was saying is total B.S. As far as I am concerned it was your own insecurity about defending what you sail and own. Others have chimed in with positions for bulkhead steering even stronger than mine and you haven't accused them of implying anything.

I developed and built the first and only U.S. manufactured catamaran over 33 ft. 25 yrs ago, we were the only U.S. builder for over a decade, and it was and still is a very successful and popular brand and design. I have talked to probably thousands of potential buyers, so I think I am pretty qualified to speak for the market as I know it. If you want to check my credentials please feel free to go to my website www.hytechmarine.com

As I said before when it comes to the best arrangement for CRUISING, without any question I advocate 1. Bulkhead mounted, 2. Raised or flybridge and distant last, outboard exposed helms. So let me make this disclaimer for your to understand, THIS IS MY OPINION, I AM NOT SPEAKING FOR YOU OR ANYONE ELSE.

You developed the Manta? My ass! Seems as if you the builder of the Manta knows nothing of its history.


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Old 23-12-2015, 18:40   #118
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Re: Helm positions

Quote:
Originally Posted by pbr View Post
Sorry but that is total bilge and hypocritical.
Calling people "punter's" is not derogatory? Evidently not if it supports your position. The fact that I built boats in the past that had bulkhead steering has nothing to do with my opinion of the best arrangement today.

All those words you are so conveniently reading into what I was saying is total B.S. As far as I am concerned it was your own insecurity about defending what you sail and own. Others have chimed in with positions for bulkhead steering even stronger than mine and you haven't accused them of implying anything.

I developed and built the first and only U.S. manufactured catamaran over 33 ft. 25 yrs ago, we were the only U.S. builder for over a decade, and it was and still is a very successful and popular brand and design. I have talked to probably thousands of potential buyers, so I think I am pretty qualified to speak for the market as I know it. If you want to check my credentials please feel free to go to my website www.hytechmarine.com

As I said before when it comes to the best arrangement for CRUISING, without any question I advocate 1. Bulkhead mounted, 2. Raised or flybridge and distant last, outboard exposed helms. So let me make this disclaimer for your to understand, THIS IS MY OPINION, I AM NOT SPEAKING FOR YOU OR ANYONE ELSE.
OK in your own words in bold above

cant do that over a rum
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Old 23-12-2015, 18:42   #119
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Re: Helm positions

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Originally Posted by StuM View Post
As someone who has worked and lived in the tropics for over 30 years, that photo horrifies me.

I'd give the girl on the port helm 2 max hours to get badly burned judging by her skin colour, even if she is plastered with SF50+.

And are you familiar with skin cancer?
Thanks for your concern. I assure you we survived. You do not want to know how familiar with cancer I am, in many of its forms. Trust me on this.

That obviously posed picture was taken in about, oh, 1/500 of a second. How long did you see us out there?

Dave
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Old 23-12-2015, 18:48   #120
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Re: Helm positions

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You developed the Manta? My ass! Seems as if you the builder of the Manta knows nothing of its history.


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I developed it from the original hull and deck that was brought from Canada specifically for me to do so. Every standard and feature came from me, I also arranged to subcontract Endeavour to build the boats and was an equity shareholder. I personally oversaw the manufacturing, sold, and oversaw the commissioning of the first 80 hulls. I also subsequently developed the Power cat with N.A. Cortland Steck. I personally hold the registered Trademark for the Manta name.

Now let's hear your version SMJ, and be careful what you say.
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