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Southern Star · 22-12-2015, 15:26

PBR, I think it is funny that you should speak to the inability of those with performance cats to respect the choices of others; afterall, you threw the first stone when you wrote that "anyone who has cruised..." prefers protected helms.

2hullsdave (and others) became understandably defensive to the extent that you were dismissing his preference by inferring that he must not actually cruise in his Catana. In that respect your comment was not only inflammatory, but demonstrably wrong (and my apologies to Dave, who does not in any way need my support).

What is interesting to me, is that I suspect the vast majority of people on this site who buy cruising boats will not only never cross oceans, but never do 8-10 day offshore passages in their boats. They are far more likely to island hop with only occasional overnite passages. As a result, it seems to me that dual outboard helms would be the IDEAL helm for them Since they can pick their weather windows, they need not worry about protected helms. Rather, when they want to steer they can enjoy an unobstructed view of their sails while being able to 'commune' with those in the cockpit. They can not only feel, but be 'racier' when they inevitably want to 'compete' with another boat they come upon on the same course. Doesn't everyone have that urge???????

Brad

colemj · 22-12-2015, 15:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by admiralslater

When I started this thread i thought it would stay nice. PBR what a beautiful cockpit table

Well I'm going to disagree here! I don't want any varnish wood in my cockpit - I have much better things to do with my time and more pressing maintenance items.

It is beautiful in the absolute sense, though.

Mark

pbr · 22-12-2015, 15:31

Personally I'm with you Mark, but that was what the doctor ordered.

Doe818 · 22-12-2015, 21:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by pbr

First, boom brake is not a replacement for properly jibing the main, it is a preventer you can set from the safety of the cockpit you release it, jibe, and then reset. In the event of an accidental jibe it will let the main cross albeit slowly which is safer for the rig than having it pinned to the rail with a preventer that has to be set and reset (dangerous maneuver).

If you would read more carefully you would understand we were talking about jibing with the Code Zero and the main at the same time, not just jibing the main.

Comparing 100 million dollar one offs to making a profit as a production builder is an illogical and absurd comparison my friend

. Again maybe in Australia, but no company in this country can survive building three of anything in the size range we are talking about unless the are asking double of the average market price or it's a sideline or hobby. It is obvious to me you have never built, or marketed anything in the boat business.

The original question of this thread was which helm position is best, based on my personal experience and customer feedback and market demand, for me it is clearly a bulkhead position, with fly bridge or raised helm coming in second. The numbers are ten to one over exposed helms. I would say 90% of the people I talk to immediately discount them when talking design.

If outboard exposed helms is your preference for the way you sail that is fine, but if we are having balanced discussion on what the best arrangement is for most cruisers and what is clearly more popular by a very large margin, then it is bulkhead (my preference) or raised/flybridge in my opinion.

P.S. This will be my last reply to you.

"Screw you guys I'm going home"....sound familar?

Still going on about Australia when Australia was not mentioned once by me in regards to this, although I mentioned the US several times. (You really don't like us do you?)

Yes you're right I have never built small cats for a living, I'm not that stupid, instead the projects I manage are far bigger and more lucrative which allow me to buy new cats fairly regularly instead of building them for punters. Although I do know a few builders around the world who build only a few boats a year and do very well. 90% of your customers discount them you say? I thought you said before that all of them do, if say 80% next time you realise you will be agreeing with what I've said all along yes?. Also btw You just reinforced my point without me needing to say anything more, as you correctly say the question was about the different helms, it was not about which sold more units etc, you introduced that logic and I countered it by saying your view being the market view of a boat builder with a dog in the fight is not the complete story. I got into this thread for one reason only, to present a different angle to the "outboard helms are bad in foul weather and bulkhead helms aren't" generalization because of who reads these forums. You decided, without presenting any actual facts, that this didn't gel with your view and that it must therefore be false and proceeding to introduce more false information about not being able to gybe twin helm cats alone, regardless of the sail....somehow you then found your way to boom brakes of all useless things. Anyone reading this thread will see clearly that you have a commercial agenda and have not adequately addressed the actual question, and that's fine with me. Perhaps dig a bit deeper on life instead of wallowing in your own myopia, you might learn something new and be happier for it.
You're right though, no point talking about this here anymore.

Doe818 · 22-12-2015, 21:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by colemj

No, but maybe I don't understand your question. Regardless of the number of people available, only one can pull on the furling line. The continuous furler drums are designed to always have a tight grip on the line regardless - the "lazy" side of the continuous line never needs any pressure on it, and it is always loose on ours.

Or we just have a very good and unusual one?

Mark

Yeah it does sound like you have a good one. Which one is it? In the past we've had issues with some brands slipping on the lazy side.

Doe818 · 22-12-2015, 21:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Southern Star

What is interesting to me, is that I suspect the vast majority of people on this site who buy cruising boats will not only never cross oceans, but never do 8-10 day offshore passages in their boats. They are far more likely to island hop with only occasional overnite passages. As a result, it seems to me that dual outboard helms would be the IDEAL helm for them Since they can pick their weather windows, they need not worry about protected helms. Rather, when they want to steer they can enjoy an unobstructed view of their sails while being able to 'commune' with those in the cockpit. They can not only feel, but be 'racier' when they inevitably want to 'compete' with another boat they come upon on the same course. Doesn't everyone have that urge???????

Brad

Exactly. They also pretty good for long distances too and the point here is to urge anyone who is remotely interested in them to do themselves a favour and go out and spend some time on a boat with them. Most owners of these types will gladly assist. Quite a few punters (probably most) will ultimately reject them in favour of bulkhead helms, but a surprisingly large number (and growing) will love em.

chris in SG · 22-12-2015, 22:06

colemj · 23-12-2015, 05:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Doe818

I have never built small cats for a living, I'm not that stupid, instead the projects I manage are far bigger and more lucrative which allow me to buy new cats fairly regularly instead of building them for punters.

Wow, your disdain for normal people who don't have multi-millions to put into a boat is either arrogant or offensive.

Or both.

Mark

colemj · 23-12-2015, 05:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Doe818

Yeah it does sound like you have a good one. Which one is it? In the past we've had issues with some brands slipping on the lazy side.

It is a Facnor. It is important to use the correct size and type of furling line in them.

Mark

pbr · 23-12-2015, 05:34

[QUOTE=colemj;1995382]Wow, your disdain for normal people who don't have multi-millions to put into a boat is either arrogant or offensive.

Or both.

Mark[/QUOTE

Yep your a "Punter"

pbr · 23-12-2015, 07:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Southern Star

PBR, I think it is funny that you should speak to the inability of those with performance cats to respect the choices of others; afterall, you threw the first stone when you wrote that "anyone who has cruised..." prefers protected helms.

2hullsdave (and others) became understandably defensive to the extent that you were dismissing his preference by inferring that he must not actually cruise in his Catana. In that respect your comment was not only inflammatory, but demonstrably wrong (and my apologies to Dave, who does not in any way need my support).

What is interesting to me, is that I suspect the vast majority of people on this site who buy cruising boats will not only never cross oceans, but never do 8-10 day offshore passages in their boats. They are far more likely to island hop with only occasional overnite passages. As a result, it seems to me that dual outboard helms would be the IDEAL helm for them Since they can pick their weather windows, they need not worry about protected helms. Rather, when they want to steer they can enjoy an unobstructed view of their sails while being able to 'commune' with those in the cockpit. They can not only feel, but be 'racier' when they inevitably want to 'compete' with another boat they come upon on the same course. Doesn't everyone have that urge???????

Brad

I never implied that at all, it was interpreted that way, I clearly stated it was my opinion and even rephrased it, where is your outrage being referred to as a "punter" because you have bulkhead steering?

Training Wheels · 23-12-2015, 07:57

I'm a punter, too!

Sent from my iPad using Cruisers Sailing Forum

**StuM** · 23-12-2015, 15:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Southern Star

What is interesting to me, is that I suspect the vast majority of people on this site who buy cruising boats will not only never cross oceans, but never do 8-10 day offshore passages in their boats. They are far more likely to island hop with only occasional overnite passages. As a result, it seems to me that dual outboard helms would be the IDEAL helm for them Since they can pick their weather windows, they need not worry about protected helms. Rather, when they want to steer they can enjoy an unobstructed view of their sails while being able to 'commune' with those in the cockpit. They can not only feel, but be 'racier' when they inevitably want to 'compete' with another boat they come upon on the same course. Doesn't everyone have that urge???????

Brad

There are two types of weather that you need protection from:
1. Cold and wet.
2. Tropical sunny days.

If you sail in the tropics, exposed outboard helms are NOT a pleasant place to sit for long periods in either situation.

pbr · 23-12-2015, 15:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by StuM

There are two types of weather that you need protection from:
1. Cold and wet.
2. Tropical sunny days.

If you sail in the tropics, exposed outboard helms are NOT a pleasant place to sit for long periods in either situation.

Totally agree, I have raced in open cockpits all my life, but when I go cruising I want the shade or warmth of the cockpit helm.