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Old 22-12-2015, 07:01   #76
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Re: Helm positions

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Originally Posted by pbr View Post
To jibe a dual helm you would need a person at either helm to handle the sheets, or cast off the leeward and run to the other side and trim (safety harness, jackline?), since another person would be handling the main sheet in the jibe.
Damn, guess I've been doing it wrong. I prefer to use the word "stroll" rather than "run." But yes, safety harness and tether may be in use, depending on the conditions. But we can move all around the cockpit without relocating a tether anchor point. But I admit I'm cursed with having only two hands so I have to handle the main separately...

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Originally Posted by colemj View Post
I just measured ours - the Code 0 winch is 40" away from the helm.

For jibing, we prefer just rolling it in (it's on a continuous furler), jibing the boat and letting it back out. Done with one person, and less stress/hassle.

But really, if we are running that deep, the white sails work just as well, so the Code 0 is rarely used when jibing might be necessary.

Mark
Here's where you have me, Mark. Although I've done it singlehanded, it's much faster and results in a better "furl" when we use two people to furl our reacher - one on the continuous line and one on the active sheet. We have to furl it most of the way to jibe because the furled genny is in the way. But I can't remember when the last time we jibed it because if we're that deep we'd be on the sym spi....

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I think the problem is those who own such boats not accepting the choices of those who do not necessarily need, or want to pay, or cannot accept the comfort limitations of such boats, as valid choices for them. This theme resonates in this thread.
I think a close read will show that to what ever degree this theme exists, it exists on both sides....

This horse is about dead. Recommend we move on. I've got to go launder my shoelaces....

Dave
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Old 22-12-2015, 07:05   #77
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Re: Helm positions

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Originally Posted by colemj View Post
I just measured ours - the Code 0 winch is 40" away from the helm.

For jibing, we prefer just rolling it in (it's on a continuous furler), jibing the boat and letting it back out. Done with one person, and less stress/hassle.

But really, if we are running that deep, the white sails work just as well, so the Code 0 is rarely used when jibing might be necessary.

Mark
Right Mark, forgot to mention that one person can do it all, rolling up the Code 0, jibe the main, roll out the Code 0 on new jibe. But as you say even with two people rolling up is simpler. Needless to say I am also a big advocate of furling Code 0 for that reason.
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Old 22-12-2015, 07:11   #78
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Re: Helm positions

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Here's where you have me, Mark. Although I've done it singlehanded, it's much faster and results in a better "furl" when we use two people to furl our reacher - one on the continuous line and one on the active sheet.

Our continuous line leads back to the cockpit by the winch.

Mark
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Old 22-12-2015, 07:52   #79
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Re: Helm positions

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Our continuous line leads back to the cockpit by the winch.

Mark
Roger.

One last question: how many winches do you have for all the tasks and do you have to rely on rope clutches to temporarily hold lines to free up a winch for another job? Are winches powered?

I have seven cockpit winches, a central one is powered which handles all mainsail chores except sheets. Two manual winches dedicated to the mainsheets (no traveler), two manual primaries, and two manual utility. I get a lot of practice servicing winches, but I generally don't have to park a line on a clutch to handle another line.....

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Old 22-12-2015, 08:44   #80
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Re: Helm positions

One main electric winch at the helm handles most everything - raise/lower, trim, reef. Yes, rope clutches, but I have never found a situation where I would rather have had an additional winch without a clutched in lieu of the clutch (we have a self tacking jib).

One non-electric winch in cockpit for code 0/spinnaker. This is the same winch as the electric, so it could be swapped out if something went wrong with that one.

One winch on the mast for raising the code 0/spinnaker.

Mark
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Old 22-12-2015, 09:16   #81
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Re: Helm positions

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Originally Posted by colemj View Post
I just measured ours - the Code 0 winch is 40" away from the helm.

For jibing, we prefer just rolling it in (it's on a continuous furler), jibing the boat and letting it back out. Done with one person, and less stress/hassle.

But really, if we are running that deep, the white sails work just as well, so the Code 0 is rarely used when jibing might be necessary.

Mark
I might add the white sails work just as well, because of the Camber Spar, to duplicate that with a conventional furling jib you would need a whisker pole, which I recommend to my clients even before a Code 0.
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Old 22-12-2015, 11:29   #82
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Re: Helm positions

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Spewing? Uninformed conjecture? The total number of sales has a lot to do with staying in business, and to do that you give the market what they are asking for. In this case I agree with the market when it comes to helm position, which was the original question.

In the severe conditions you speak of the ride and water on deck depend on how hard you are pushing the boat, we are talking cruisers not racers. Most cruisers do their best to avoid that kind of weather for prolonged sailing, or may reach off, motor, or in some cases lay to a sea anchor.
I have seen those conditions before and never felt compelled to take down the vinyl enclosure, though. I have already mentioned the glass insert. Have you ever sailed with one of those?

I don't know about Australia's market but I do know my market and they want to be out of the weather with the option to be in it if they choose whether it is nice out or nasty. Based on my experience talking to hundreds of potential buyers and cruisers,there is little or no market potential here for outboard helms.

The Manta has a centerline winch inside the cockpit for Code 0 so not very far to go when needing to access it. Jibing can be done by one person at that location, while the helmsman jibes the main.

To jibe a dual helm you would need a person at either helm to handle the sheets, or cast off the leeward and run to the other side and trim (safety harness, jackline?), since another person would be handling the main sheet in the jibe. When I have a design with two winches I make sure they can be accessed from inside the cockpit.

With a self tacker you still need to adjust the single sheet so it needs to come to a helm, same with the boom brake, ever used one of those?
I don't understand how you are bringing both sheets on a conventional jib to each helm unless you are rigging double sheets, which is a lot lazy sheet laying around.

99% of the boats I have been involved with have gone to bluewater cruisers.
There are heaps of builders out there who do very well building smaller numbers of boats ranging from small custom cats to mega yachts. In fact the most profitable builders of recreational vessels in the world often build one boat every 2-3 years, eg feadship, perini navi, ever heard of those?
But I guess if you're building lots of mediocre low margin boats that are the same as hundreds of other mediocre low margin boats then you gotta do what you gotta do.

Who said the boat was being pushed hard in those conditions mentioned before? She was doing 4-6 knots so as to keep her in the water coming off the back of 4-5m short period breaking waves with 45 knots over the top of them. And you keep going on about Australia, whats that all about? Yes I've heard of a boom brake, but what on earth would I want a boom brake for when I know how to gybe properly, ever heard of those?

Bringing self tacker jib sheets to each helm is child's play...I even gave you a clue (double ended remember?). Two people to gybe a dual helm boat? What? Seriously? And as to no market for dual helms in the US, perhaps catana and outremer would have something to say about that, in fact the small custom builder doing mine has 75% (3 boats) of next years production all headed for homes in the US for US buyers, all with dual helms. Why is it so difficult for you to accept that there is another option out there that is nifty, has far fewer of the downsides often brought up and is well supported, even though you say none of this is the case? You're just confirming my point re those that will simply hold onto this tired old position regardless of reality until they're blue in the face.
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Old 22-12-2015, 11:54   #83
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Re: Helm positions

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Our continuous line leads back to the cockpit by the winch.

Mark
Very nice, do you ever find when furling it alone that the line can slip on the drum?
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Old 22-12-2015, 12:50   #84
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Re: Helm positions

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There are heaps of builders out there who do very well building smaller numbers of boats ranging from small custom cats to mega yachts. In fact the most profitable builders of recreational vessels in the world often build one boat every 2-3 years, eg feadship, perini navi, ever heard of those?
But I guess if you're building lots of mediocre low margin boats that are the same as hundreds of other mediocre low margin boats then you gotta do what you gotta do.

Who said the boat was being pushed hard in those conditions mentioned before? She was doing 4-6 knots so as to keep her in the water coming off the back of 4-5m short period breaking waves with 45 knots over the top of them. And you keep going on about Australia, whats that all about? Yes I've heard of a boom brake, but what on earth would I want a boom brake for when I know how to gybe properly, ever heard of those?

Bringing self tacker jib sheets to each helm is child's play...I even gave you a clue (double ended remember?). Two people to gybe a dual helm boat? What? Seriously? And as to no market for dual helms in the US, perhaps catana and outremer would have something to say about that, in fact the small custom builder doing mine has 75% (3 boats) of next years production all headed for homes in the US for US buyers, all with dual helms. Why is it so difficult for you to accept that there is another option out there that is nifty, has far fewer of the downsides often brought up and is well supported, even though you say none of this is the case? You're just confirming my point re those that will simply hold onto this tired old position regardless of reality until they're blue in the face.
First, boom brake is not a replacement for properly jibing the main, it is a preventer you can set from the safety of the cockpit you release it, jibe, and then reset. In the event of an accidental jibe it will let the main cross albeit slowly which is safer for the rig than having it pinned to the rail with a preventer that has to be set and reset (dangerous maneuver).

If you would read more carefully you would understand we were talking about jibing with the Code Zero and the main at the same time, not just jibing the main.


Comparing 100 million dollar one offs to making a profit as a production builder is an illogical and absurd comparison my friend . Again maybe in Australia, but no company in this country can survive building three of anything in the size range we are talking about unless the are asking double of the average market price or it's a sideline or hobby. It is obvious to me you have never built, or marketed anything in the boat business.

The original question of this thread was which helm position is best, based on my personal experience and customer feedback and market demand, for me it is clearly a bulkhead position, with fly bridge or raised helm coming in second. The numbers are ten to one over exposed helms. I would say 90% of the people I talk to immediately discount them when talking design.

If outboard exposed helms is your preference for the way you sail that is fine, but if we are having balanced discussion on what the best arrangement is for most cruisers and what is clearly more popular by a very large margin, then it is bulkhead (my preference) or raised/flybridge in my opinion.

P.S. This will be my last reply to you.
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Old 22-12-2015, 12:53   #85
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Re: Helm positions

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I've seen that boat and it's coach roof/bimini is similar to that of the Catana471 regarding height. The canvas can be rolled up or removed, so any windage there goes away during nice weather. I would bet that boat goes to weather much better than anything Lagoon, FP, or Nautitech makes in that size. It won't compete well with most board cats in that size, but that has nothing at all to do with the cockpit or helm.

Mark
Here is a picture of it sailing upwind with Camber Spar and freestanding mast.

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Old 22-12-2015, 14:17   #86
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Re: Helm positions

I missed seeing this subject thread. I'll have to come back and have a look.
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Old 22-12-2015, 14:36   #87
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Re: Helm positions

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Couple more images of helm and cockpit

When I started this thread i thought it would stay nice. PBR what a beautiful cockpit table
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Old 22-12-2015, 15:00   #88
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Re: Helm positions

Thanks
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Old 22-12-2015, 16:17   #89
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Re: Helm positions

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Although I sail a condomaran with a bulkhead helm and full cockpit enclosure (and quite like it on my boat). I am in complete agreement with (2hulls) Dave:

1. Helm position, like virtually everything else in yacht design, is a compromise and there are no absolutes. If I had a perfornance oriented cat such as a Catana 471, I am confident that I would prefer dual aft helms: they permit an unobstructed view of sail trim on either tack while still allowing the helmsperson to 'engage' with the crew (or non-crew guests in the cockpit) far better than a raised bulkhead helm with separate cover. On the very rare occasion when you cannot rely upon your autopilot in bad conditions, wear foul weather gear!
2. Self-tacking jibs are great for single handing, but they detract from performance to the extent that you cannot have the variance in headsail area (and headsail trim) that you can without.
3. I have no doubt that the Bali, Catana's new budget line of catamarans will outsell the rest of their line by a large margin. To suggest that this is because they are better boats is ridiculous. In 1970 the Chevrolet Vega outsold the Porsche 911 by an incredible margin, but that did not makke it either a better automobile (or the future of automobiles). Yes, the Vega claimed advanced technology (such as aluminum blocks with no hardened cylinder linings that wore out within about 50,000 miles). Porsche, however, relied upon dated technology such as nicasil linings to their cylinder walls which added both weight and cost (and with reliability that cost them profits in terms of early engine rebuilds).
4. The Porsche/Vega analogy may seem extreme, but there can be no doubt that Catana (especially in years past), favoured performance and quality construction over low prices/large accomodation. Are there more comodious/comfortable cats for the price than the Catana? Of course. Are there comodious/comfortable automobiles for the price than the Porshce 911? Again, of course. In fact, any well-equipped mini-van would win by those standards.

Fortunately, there are still manufactureres of both automobiles (and Catamarans) that cater to the admittedly smaller performance/quality market. Part of that performance advantage, in a cat, comes with dual outboard helms, a crew friendly cockpit, boards rather than LAR keels, carbon fibre reinforcement where appropriate and performance oriented rigs.

Put another way, your needs (and that of the vast majority of the market) may favour the minivan, but surely you can still respect (or even envy) those whose tastes/needs and budget are different from your own. I have owned 3 Porsches over the years and can only wish that my present financial circumstances permitted me to own a sailing equivalent.

Brad
I will point out that not all self tacking jibs are equal, a Camber Spar, or Hoyt boom can offer performance and features no self tacker on a track can.
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Old 22-12-2015, 16:23   #90
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Re: Helm positions

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Very nice, do you ever find when furling it alone that the line can slip on the drum?

No, but maybe I don't understand your question. Regardless of the number of people available, only one can pull on the furling line. The continuous furler drums are designed to always have a tight grip on the line regardless - the "lazy" side of the continuous line never needs any pressure on it, and it is always loose on ours.

Or we just have a very good and unusual one?

Mark
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