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Old 21-12-2015, 19:38   #61
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Re: Helm positions

I'm with Dave and Barra in defence of the aft helm (or any helm). It's totally a personal choice and not even a choice that makes one design a better of safer option than another. I like my tent bubble helm, but there's downsides (mostly performance). Some good upsides I mentioned earlier, but I don't think I'd let my preference determine which design I would rather sail. There's too many pros and cons with any design feature to simply say 'this is the best!', let alone the hundreds of design features that go into a single catamaran design. I was taking a look at the new nautitech 40 and 46 the other day and they both had a lot of design features that are really only possible with the aft helm station as part of the overall design. The custom 50' helm shown above looks cozy as hell, but let's face it, it's not going to go to wind as well as if it had a flush coachroof/Bimini and a boom and mast that didn't need to be that 2' higher. Everything's a compromise and some of us are happy enough to compromise some comforts for performance and vise versa. Apparently Nautitech have sold out production on the Open 46 till 2017 so I guess the aft helms aren't putting too many buyers off.
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Old 21-12-2015, 20:03   #62
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Re: Helm positions

Although I sail a condomaran with a bulkhead helm and full cockpit enclosure (and quite like it on my boat). I am in complete agreement with (2hulls) Dave:

1. Helm position, like virtually everything else in yacht design, is a compromise and there are no absolutes. If I had a perfornance oriented cat such as a Catana 471, I am confident that I would prefer dual aft helms: they permit an unobstructed view of sail trim on either tack while still allowing the helmsperson to 'engage' with the crew (or non-crew guests in the cockpit) far better than a raised bulkhead helm with separate cover. On the very rare occasion when you cannot rely upon your autopilot in bad conditions, wear foul weather gear!
2. Self-tacking jibs are great for single handing, but they detract from performance to the extent that you cannot have the variance in headsail area (and headsail trim) that you can without.
3. I have no doubt that the Bali, Catana's new budget line of catamarans will outsell the rest of their line by a large margin. To suggest that this is because they are better boats is ridiculous. In 1970 the Chevrolet Vega outsold the Porsche 911 by an incredible margin, but that did not makke it either a better automobile (or the future of automobiles). Yes, the Vega claimed advanced technology (such as aluminum blocks with no hardened cylinder linings that wore out within about 50,000 miles). Porsche, however, relied upon dated technology such as nicasil linings to their cylinder walls which added both weight and cost (and with reliability that cost them profits in terms of early engine rebuilds).
4. The Porsche/Vega analogy may seem extreme, but there can be no doubt that Catana (especially in years past), favoured performance and quality construction over low prices/large accomodation. Are there more comodious/comfortable cats for the price than the Catana? Of course. Are there comodious/comfortable automobiles for the price than the Porshce 911? Again, of course. In fact, any well-equipped mini-van would win by those standards.

Fortunately, there are still manufactureres of both automobiles (and Catamarans) that cater to the admittedly smaller performance/quality market. Part of that performance advantage, in a cat, comes with dual outboard helms, a crew friendly cockpit, boards rather than LAR keels, carbon fibre reinforcement where appropriate and performance oriented rigs.

Put another way, your needs (and that of the vast majority of the market) may favour the minivan, but surely you can still respect (or even envy) those whose tastes/needs and budget are different from your own. I have owned 3 Porsches over the years and can only wish that my present financial circumstances permitted me to own a sailing equivalent.

Brad
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Old 21-12-2015, 20:14   #63
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Re: Helm positions

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Originally Posted by Southern Star View Post
Although I sail a condomaran with a bulkhead helm and full cockpit enclosure (and quite like it on my boat). I am in complete agreement with (2hulls) Dave:

1. Helm position, like virtually everything else in yacht design, is a compromise and there are no absolutes. If I had a perfornance oriented cat such as a Catana 471, I am confident that I would prefer dual aft helms: they permit an unobstructed view of sail trim on either tack while still allowing the helmsperson to 'engage' with the crew (or non-crew guests in the cockpit) far better than a raised bulkhead helm with separate cover. On the very rare occasion when you cannot rely upon your autopilot in bad conditions, wear foul weather gear!
2. Self-tacking jibs are great for single handing, but they detract from performance to the extent that you cannot have the variance in headsail area (and headsail trim) that you can without.
3. I have no doubt that the Bali, Catana's new budget line of catamarans will outsell the rest of their line by a large margin. To suggest that this is because they are better boats is ridiculous. In 1970 the Chevrolet Vega outsold the Porsche 911 by an incredible margin, but that did not makke it either a better automobile (or the future of automobiles). Yes, the Vega claimed advanced technology (such as aluminum blocks with no hardened cylinder linings that wore out within about 50,000 miles). Porsche, however, relied upon dated technology such as nicasil linings to their cylinder walls which added both weight and cost (and with reliability that cost them profits in terms of early engine rebuilds).
4. The Porsche/Vega analogy may seem extreme, but there can be no doubt that Catana (especially in years past), favoured performance and quality construction over low prices/large accomodation. Are there more comodious/comfortable cats for the price than the Catana? Of course. Are there comodious/comfortable automobiles for the price than the Porshce 911? Again, of course. In fact, any well-equipped mini-van would win by those standards.

Fortunately, there are still manufactureres of both automobiles (and Catamarans) that cater to the admittedly smaller performance/quality market. Part of that performance advantage, in a cat, comes with dual outboard helms, a crew friendly cockpit, boards rather than LAR keels, carbon fibre reinforcement where appropriate and performance oriented rigs.

Put another way, your needs (and that of the vast majority of the market) may favour the minivan, but surely you can still respect (or even envy) those whose tastes/needs and budget are different from your own. I have owned 3 Porsches over the years and can only wish that my present financial circumstances permitted me to own a sailing equivalent.

Brad
I rather like the way this dovetails with my 'sports car' point..
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Old 21-12-2015, 20:20   #64
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Re: Helm positions

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I rather like the way this dovetails with my 'sports car' point..
Yes spoken like a true long term cruiser
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Old 21-12-2015, 20:31   #65
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Re: Helm positions

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Originally Posted by colemj View Post
The Nautitech 40 also gives me the willies, but it is tremendously improved over the older Nautitech models. Those gave me cold shaking chills.

Check out that helmseat and the fact that one needs to step up onto the narrow stern deck and across the traveller to get in/out of the helms. I consider this the worse helm I have seen on a catamaran.

Comparatively, the Catana and Outremer helms are buried inside the boat.

Mark
Me too. Delivered an older model once and really did not like it.

Still have a folder of pics named "Why Nautitech Suxs" (no offence intended to any owners who like their boats).

Missing from those pics are my first turn at the helm while it was pouring rain and blowing like stink. Picking our way down the Rio, limited vis, so much for the "oh, just duck inside and run the AP" sales pitch. No pic was taken because my crew was in the salon prentending to sleep, so as to avoid a turn at the helm...but I saw the bugger grinning in his "sleep".

Great visibilty from those "innovative" helm positions as you can see in the pic below.
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Old 21-12-2015, 20:59   #66
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Re: Helm positions

Well, perhaps instead of a sports car analogy, most people would prefer analogizing a performance cruising cat with a true GT (grand touring) car. Yes, somewhat limited space, but very capable of relatively comfortable (and fun and fast) long-distance touring for a couple, albiet not a family of six!

Still, speaking of sports cars, two years ago my wife and I took our Boxster on a 2000 mile, 2 week trip to the Canadian east coast, drove the Cabot Trail at speed (when possible), then took our return through the US east coast to Boston and then back to Ontario. We drove top down when weather permitted (admittedly not as comfortable as top-up climate-controlled cruising in a Mercedes S Class). We had limits as to what we could pack - although, in addition to casual wear, we still managed to bring foul-weather gear for sailing on Lake Brador and I packed a sports jacket and my wife a couple of dressy outfits and about 6 pairs of shoes. Admittedly, not everyone's idea of touring, but don't knock it until you have given it a try!

Brad
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Old 21-12-2015, 21:16   #67
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Re: Helm positions

Belizesailor, while the dual aft helms on Nautitechs are not representative of the entire breed, your inflammatory 'Sux' comment could hardly be taken as anything but offensive by Nautitech owners, as I am sure you were aware. I have no problem with you expressing your dislike for the helm arrangement (and the reasons therefore), but boats are somewhat like spouses for many of us. We love them in spite of their faults (and I am sure you'll admit that at least some of the Wildcats had significant faults), but that does not mean that we would (or should) tolerate them being described in not only unflattering, but offensive terms!

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Old 21-12-2015, 21:30   #68
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Re: Helm positions

Quote:
Put another way, your needs (and that of the vast majority of the market) may favour the minivan, but surely you can still respect (or even envy) those whose tastes/needs and budget are different from your own. I have owned 3 Porsches over the years and can only wish that my present financial circumstances permitted me to own a sailing equivalent.
Quote:
I have no doubt that the Bali, Catana's new budget line of catamarans will outsell the rest of their line by a large margin. To suggest that this is because they are better boats is ridiculous
I cannot read here where anybody suggested that the Bali was a better boat - just different. Not my cup of tea, but obviously very popular.

I do not think the problem is the vast majority of sailors accepting, or appreciating, the faster boats. I think there is universal admiration and acceptance of their benefits by all sailors. I think the problem is those who own such boats not accepting the choices of those who do not necessarily need, or want to pay, or cannot accept the comfort limitations of such boats, as valid choices for them. This theme resonates in this thread.
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Old 21-12-2015, 21:36   #69
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Re: Helm positions

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Originally Posted by Southern Star View Post
Belizesailor, while the dual aft helms on Nautitechs are not representative of the entire breed, your inflammatory 'Sux' comment could hardly be taken as anything but offensive by Nautitech owners, as I am sure you were aware. I have no problem with you expressing your dislike for the helm arrangement (and the reasons therefore), but boats are somewhat like spouses for many of us. We love them in spite of their faults (and I am sure you'll admit that at least some of the Wildcats had significant faults), but that does not mean that we would (or should) tolerate them being described in not only unflattering, but offensive terms!

Brad
Agreed, should have omitted that part.
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Old 22-12-2015, 00:11   #70
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Re: Helm positions

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e

I don't know about Australia, but here the trend if anything is to raised or fly bridge helms, usually fully enclosed. However a proper bulkhead design I believe is a better solution. As to the your isolated example of "clears" blowing out, I would suggest maybe they were in disrepair or poorly made, with over 120 boats built all with partial or full enclosures, many sailed in all kinds of ocean conditions I have never heard of that happening. As to visibility that is also why I recommend a glass insert or windshield with wiper directly in front of the helm position.

Sure in ideal conditions the outboard helm offers great visibility of the horizon and sails, however it dose not lend itself to bringing all sail handling and electronics to one location, another criteria for easy single handed sailing. Just look at the numbers sold and compare bulkhead or raised helm positions vs. outboard exposed helms today.
I don't recall saying the clears blew out. I said we couldn't see through them and they were beginning to take strain anyway so were taken down so they wouldn't get damaged, which by the way is what happens when they are continuously hammered by 45 knots and firehose like water/spray for 2 days, even if you've never seen it before :-). This is not an isolated example, its what happens when a cat (regardless of helm set up) goes to wind in big wind / breaking seas and after 30000 miles (incredibly one or two of those miles were even outside of Australia) nothing has changed. Brokers and those who have never spent any meaningful time using dual helm multis (and builders of other designs with an agenda perhaps?) have been spewing this line for years, while it is simply not true that outboard helms are terrible in bad weather while bulkhead helms are heaven on earth. As someone mentioned before, new buyers into this market read this stuff so would be much better served by a dash of real world truth rather than uninformed conjecture so as to form their own opinion on what serves them better. On many occasions I've had experienced multi sailors sail with me on a catana or similar who are genuinely surprised how much they like them as they had been led to believe something different over the years by their "peers". They are just different and are managed differently, and what I was pointing out is that in many foul weather situations can actually be managed as comfortably or better than bulkhead helms.

Re not being able to bring sail controls to one location on dual helms and it being a safety issue (safety being someone else's comment), again simply not true, especially when using a self tacker, and if (as I just learned) you have built one hundred and something boats then surely you would know that? Incidentally, a neat solution I like is to have one of the helms with all sail controls (sheets, reefing, halyards etc) and the other helm with duplicated main and jib sheets (where both are double ended), best of both worlds and highly versatile. Let me ask this, what if you're flying a big code 0 or kite off the side opposite the bulkhead helm? To blow or deal with that sail in an emergency you have to climb down off the god pod and get to the other side of the cockpit (normally outside the cockpit) and in that situation you have very powerful sails with their controls not being at or close to the helm at all, even though they marketed as having "all sail controls at the helm". Does that mean that the bulkhead helm boat is less safe in that scenario? Of course not, but it does show how that argument can be turned around and what is omitted by those on that side of the argument. On most dual helm boats those kite/0 sheets are right there next to the leeward wheel with free and clear access to them and with a double ended mainsheet the leeward helm will also always have a main sheet control at it too. This means in every scenario this type of dual helm boat can have up to 3 live sheets at the leeward helm and live main and jib sheets at the windward helm, all at the same time. In light air this makes flying 3 sails (spin/0 + main + blade jib/staysail) a breeze.

As to what is selling, I'm talking about boats being delivered to blue water cruisers and not into charter. The traditional bulkhead helm boats (lagoon etc) are selling lots of boats of course, as they always have to this segment...but far more buyers than before are heading the catana, nautitech, outremer, schionning route, so there has been significant growth there, even though that market's total size is still much smaller. Hopefully it continues and as others pointed out, the total number of sales has little correlation with quality.

My last boat was a bulkhead helm and I have sailed extensively on cats with bulkhead helms, but also forward cockpits, flybridges and dual helms...my next boat has dual helms and the sail control system mentioned above, so I am biased based on my experiences, but not one eyed.
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Old 22-12-2015, 05:32   #71
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Re: Helm positions

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I don't recall saying the clears blew out. I said we couldn't see through them and they were beginning to take strain anyway so were taken down so they wouldn't get damaged, which by the way is what happens when they are continuously hammered by 45 knots and firehose like water/spray for 2 days, even if you've never seen it before :-). This is not an isolated example, its what happens when a cat (regardless of helm set up) goes to wind in big wind / breaking seas and after 30000 miles (incredibly one or two of those miles were even outside of Australia) nothing has changed. Brokers and those who have never spent any meaningful time using dual helm multis (and builders of other designs with an agenda perhaps?) have been spewing this line for years, while it is simply not true that outboard helms are terrible in bad weather while bulkhead helms are heaven on earth. As someone mentioned before, new buyers into this market read this stuff so would be much better served by a dash of real world truth rather than uninformed conjecture so as to form their own opinion on what serves them better. On many occasions I've had experienced multi sailors sail with me on a catana or similar who are genuinely surprised how much they like them as they had been led to believe something different over the years by their "peers". They are just different and are managed differently, and what I was pointing out is that in many foul weather situations can actually be managed as comfortably or better than bulkhead helms.

Re not being able to bring sail controls to one location on dual helms and it being a safety issue (safety being someone else's comment), again simply not true, especially when using a self tacker, and if (as I just learned) you have built one hundred and something boats then surely you would know that? Incidentally, a neat solution I like is to have one of the helms with all sail controls (sheets, reefing, halyards etc) and the other helm with duplicated main and jib sheets (where both are double ended), best of both worlds and highly versatile. Let me ask this, what if you're flying a big code 0 or kite off the side opposite the bulkhead helm? To blow or deal with that sail in an emergency you have to climb down off the god pod and get to the other side of the cockpit (normally outside the cockpit) and in that situation you have very powerful sails with their controls not being at or close to the helm at all, even though they marketed as having "all sail controls at the helm". Does that mean that the bulkhead helm boat is less safe in that scenario? Of course not, but it does show how that argument can be turned around and what is omitted by those on that side of the argument. On most dual helm boats those kite/0 sheets are right there next to the leeward wheel with free and clear access to them and with a double ended mainsheet the leeward helm will also always have a main sheet control at it too. This means in every scenario this type of dual helm boat can have up to 3 live sheets at the leeward helm and live main and jib sheets at the windward helm, all at the same time. In light air this makes flying 3 sails (spin/0 + main + blade jib/staysail) a breeze.

As to what is selling, I'm talking about boats being delivered to blue water cruisers and not into charter. The traditional bulkhead helm boats (lagoon etc) are selling lots of boats of course, as they always have to this segment...but far more buyers than before are heading the catana, nautitech, outremer, schionning route, so there has been significant growth there, even though that market's total size is still much smaller. Hopefully it continues and as others pointed out, the total number of sales has little correlation with quality.

My last boat was a bulkhead helm and I have sailed extensively on cats with bulkhead helms, but also forward cockpits, flybridges and dual helms...my next boat has dual helms and the sail control system mentioned above, so I am biased based on my experiences, but not one eyed.
Spewing? Uninformed conjecture? The total number of sales has a lot to do with staying in business, and to do that you give the market what they are asking for. In this case I agree with the market when it comes to helm position, which was the original question.

In the severe conditions you speak of the ride and water on deck depend on how hard you are pushing the boat, we are talking cruisers not racers. Most cruisers do their best to avoid that kind of weather for prolonged sailing, or may reach off, motor, or in some cases lay to a sea anchor.
I have seen those conditions before and never felt compelled to take down the vinyl enclosure, though. I have already mentioned the glass insert. Have you ever sailed with one of those?

I don't know about Australia's market but I do know my market and they want to be out of the weather with the option to be in it if they choose whether it is nice out or nasty. Based on my experience talking to hundreds of potential buyers and cruisers,there is little or no market potential here for outboard helms.

The Manta has a centerline winch inside the cockpit for Code 0 so not very far to go when needing to access it. Jibing can be done by one person at that location, while the helmsman jibes the main.

To jibe a dual helm you would need a person at either helm to handle the sheets, or cast off the leeward and run to the other side and trim (safety harness, jackline?), since another person would be handling the main sheet in the jibe. When I have a design with two winches I make sure they can be accessed from inside the cockpit.

With a self tacker you still need to adjust the single sheet so it needs to come to a helm, same with the boom brake, ever used one of those?
I don't understand how you are bringing both sheets on a conventional jib to each helm unless you are rigging double sheets, which is a lot lazy sheet laying around.

99% of the boats I have been involved with have gone to bluewater cruisers.
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Old 22-12-2015, 05:44   #72
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Re: Helm positions

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Originally Posted by belizesailor View Post
Me too. Delivered an older model once and really did not like it.

Still have a folder of pics named "Why Nautitech Suxs" (no offence intended to any owners who like their boats).

Missing from those pics are my first turn at the helm while it was pouring rain and blowing like stink. Picking our way down the Rio, limited vis, so much for the "oh, just duck inside and run the AP" sales pitch. No pic was taken because my crew was in the salon prentending to sleep, so as to avoid a turn at the helm...but I saw the bugger grinning in his "sleep".

Great visibilty from those "innovative" helm positions as you can see in the pic below.
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Old 22-12-2015, 05:48   #73
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Re: Helm positions

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Originally Posted by cwjohm View Post
I cannot read here where anybody suggested that the Bali was a better boat - just different. Not my cup of tea, but obviously very popular.

I do not think the problem is the vast majority of sailors accepting, or appreciating, the faster boats. I think there is universal admiration and acceptance of their benefits by all sailors. I think the problem is those who own such boats not accepting the choices of those who do not necessarily need, or want to pay, or cannot accept the comfort limitations of such boats, as valid choices for them. This theme resonates in this thread.
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Old 22-12-2015, 06:18   #74
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Re: Helm positions

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The Manta has a centerline winch inside the cockpit for Code 0 so not very far to go when needing to access it. Jibing can be done by one person at that location, while the helmsman jibes the main.
.

I just measured ours - the Code 0 winch is 40" away from the helm.

For jibing, we prefer just rolling it in (it's on a continuous furler), jibing the boat and letting it back out. Done with one person, and less stress/hassle.

But really, if we are running that deep, the white sails work just as well, so the Code 0 is rarely used when jibing might be necessary.

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Old 22-12-2015, 06:26   #75
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Re: Helm positions

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The custom 50' helm shown above looks cozy as hell, but let's face it, it's not going to go to wind as well as if it had a flush coachroof/Bimini and a boom and mast that didn't need to be that 2' higher. .

I've seen that boat and it's coach roof/bimini is similar to that of the Catana471 regarding height. The canvas can be rolled up or removed, so any windage there goes away during nice weather. I would bet that boat goes to weather much better than anything Lagoon, FP, or Nautitech makes in that size. It won't compete well with most board cats in that size, but that has nothing at all to do with the cockpit or helm.

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