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Old 21-12-2015, 14:25   #46
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Re: Helm positions

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Originally Posted by 2Hulls View Post
We've been in passage situations when everyone was called on deck at night for hairy sail maneuvers. Plenty of working room and the stations are far apart.



Dave

I think you missed my point about a well-designed single person helm. In the hairiest of situations, there is simply no need for another person, and nothing for another person to do.

Raise and lower sails, reef and unreef them upwind and down, tack and jibe - all done under control by one person without ever leaving the helm seat.

We do need to leave the helm to raise and trim the spinnaker, though. Oh, and also to unzip the sail bag...

Mark
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Old 21-12-2015, 14:30   #47
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Re: Helm positions

I will point out the hottest new model for Catana this year is the Bali line Bali Catamarans These are probably selling 3:1 on the traditional design. If this isn't evidence of the direction the market for cruising cat's is headed I don't know what is.
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Old 21-12-2015, 14:48   #48
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Re: Helm positions

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Originally Posted by colemj View Post
In the hairiest of situations, there is simply no need for another person, and nothing for another person to do.
I wish you continued good luck in this regard.

Dave
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Old 21-12-2015, 15:08   #49
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Re: Helm positions

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If this isn't evidence of the direction the market for cruising cat's is headed I don't know what is.
Yes, it's sad, isn't it?

In crude terms I think one could break down new cruising cat buyers into two groups: those with quite a bit of prior sailing experience and those with little to none. I'll bet the "little to none" group is quite larger. Hence, builders build what these people say they want - or what marketers convince them they want - (based on their little experience) which results in designs which prioritize creature comforts and maximize the capabilities of a large hull footprint; which consequently places much less emphasis on sailing as sport. They want a house that they can also sail rather than a sailing machine they can also live on. Isn't this is why the term Condomaran has stuck....?

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Old 21-12-2015, 15:51   #50
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Re: Helm positions

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Originally Posted by 2Hulls View Post
Yes, it's sad, isn't it?

In crude terms I think one could break down new cruising cat buyers into two groups: those with quite a bit of prior sailing experience and those with little to none. I'll bet the "little to none" group is quite larger. Hence, builders build what these people say they want - or what marketers convince them they want - (based on their little experience) which results in designs which prioritize creature comforts and maximize the capabilities of a large hull footprint; which consequently places much less emphasis on sailing as sport. They want a house that they can also sail rather than a sailing machine they can also live on. Isn't this is why the term Condomaran has stuck....?

Dave
+1


Very scary design
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Old 21-12-2015, 15:55   #51
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Re: Helm positions

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Originally Posted by 2Hulls View Post
Yes, it's sad, isn't it?



In crude terms I think one could break down new cruising cat buyers into two groups: those with quite a bit of prior sailing experience and those with little to none. I'll bet the "little to none" group is quite larger. Hence, builders build what these people say they want - or what marketers convince them they want - (based on their little experience) which results in designs which prioritize creature comforts and maximize the capabilities of a large hull footprint; which consequently places much less emphasis on sailing as sport. They want a house that they can also sail rather than a sailing machine they can also live on. Isn't this is why the term Condomaran has stuck....?



Dave

Couldn't agree more.


Sent from my iPad using Cruisers Sailing Forum
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Old 21-12-2015, 16:43   #52
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Re: Helm positions

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Originally Posted by 2Hulls View Post
Yes, it's sad, isn't it?

In crude terms I think one could break down new cruising cat buyers into two groups: those with quite a bit of prior sailing experience and those with little to none. I'll bet the "little to none" group is quite larger. Hence, builders build what these people say they want - or what marketers convince them they want - (based on their little experience) which results in designs which prioritize creature comforts and maximize the capabilities of a large hull footprint; which consequently places much less emphasis on sailing as sport. They want a house that they can also sail rather than a sailing machine they can also live on. Isn't this is why the term Condomaran has stuck....?

Dave

Take it from someone that has been in the business for some time, the marketers don't convince the consumer of anything. The most successful builders listen to the market and build the boats the consumer want's not the boat the builder thinks he should have. However it is the final decision of the builder to decide how much performance he can compromise to accomplish that.

Advancements in composites technology and hull design now enable us to build boats that are lighter, stronger and faster then ever for a given amount of accommodation.
Modern navigational electronics enable first time owners with basic sailing skills to actually consider extensive offshore sailing in the first year of ownership.(I have several customers doing it successfully). Equally advancements in hardware, winches, running and standing rigging, offer ways to make the boat easier and safer to handle under sail and power. Advancements in electrical systems, batteries, generators, solar power, lower power consumption equipment enable them to have real self sufficiency plus the creature comforts.

I can tell you the criteria in terms of what cruisers want and desire, hasn't changed in thirty years. In the 70's and 80's I was selling them center cockpit monohulls because it did the best job of satisfying the criteria. Today it's the cruising catamaran, more room, more stability, shallower draft, and easier handling. Catamarans have been the fastest growing segment in the sailboat industry because for cruisers, who spend 25% of the time sailing and 75% at anchor, they offer the best platform in terms of stability, shoal draft and accommodation. Needless to say they are more popular in the charter business for the same reasons

I don't think it is sad at all, a very small part of the catamaran market is interested in racing and frankly if you really want to demonstrate real skills and ability, I would suggest cruising cats are not a great vehicle. And where do you draw the line? I am sure there are Gunboat owners that consider the Catana too much of a compromise, does that imply you are less of a sailor?

Frankly it isn't too difficult to create a catamaran with performance without emphasis on ease of handling and accommodation, the real challenge and accomplishment is in creating something that will not only sail well, but provide second home accomodations.

I have personally participated in a lot racing at a pretty high level over thirty plus years, have taught it for a living as well. For me when I go cruising I don't want to work anymore than I have too, the idea of sailing double digit speeds without breaking a sweat is very appealing to me. If I want the thrill and work that comes with racing, I will jump in a Melges or J boat that is far more strategic, tactical, and responsive to superior sailing skill than most any multihull with a lot higher level of competition.

For cruisers real PERFORMANCE in a cruising multihull is calculated by VMG relative to energy expended by the crew!
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Old 21-12-2015, 16:52   #53
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Re: Helm positions

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I wish you continued good luck in this regard.

Dave
He is not alone, there are over one hundred Manta owners doing it all the time, with probably the highest percentage of full time live aboard/cruisers per number built, of any sailing design out there.
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Old 21-12-2015, 17:35   #54
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Re: Helm positions

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Originally Posted by pbr View Post
I will point out the hottest new model for Catana this year is the Bali line Bali Catamarans These are probably selling 3:1 on the traditional design. If this isn't evidence of the direction the market for cruising cat's is headed I don't know what is.
Now PBR your getting desperate in calling the Bali the future direction of the cruising market mate. These are designed primarily to increase catanas market share in the charter market. As you would get these are not always compatible markets though you wouldnt know that from the boat show marketing.

They are also substantially cheaper....

Look I see now you are pushing a commercial agenda in the manta designs which should really be disclosed up front don't you think? Like Dave says plenty of new boat owners will check out CF in their search.

Your in the game so I will defer to your view on who drives the market segment your in but there is no doubt in my mind that there is a degree of the charter market designs being "pushed" onto certain new boat owner segments to increase production volumes. This segment is definitely open to suggestion on what they think they need...
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Old 21-12-2015, 17:55   #55
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Re: Helm positions

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Now PBR your getting desperate in calling the Bali the future direction of the cruising market mate. These are designed primarily to increase catanas market share in the charter market. As you would get these are not always compatible markets though you wouldnt know that from the boat show marketing.

They are also substantially cheaper....

Look I see now you are pushing a commercial agenda in the manta designs which should really be disclosed up front don't you think? Like Dave says plenty of new boat owners will check out CF in their search.

Your in the game so I will defer to your view on who drives the market segment your in but there is no doubt in my mind that there is a degree of the charter market designs being "pushed" onto certain new boat owner segments to increase production volumes. This segment is definitely open to suggestion on what they think they need...
There is no commercial agenda Manta's have not been in production since 2009. I am just spending the time and effort to give the readership my personal opinion based on my experience in the industry.
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Old 21-12-2015, 18:11   #56
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Re: Helm positions

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I am just spending the time and effort to give the readership my personal opinion based on my experience in the industry.
As you should and should continue to do so. Just make it your opinion, recognizing there are other preferences.

I have even less agenda and simply think prospective boat owners should be "exposed" to something more than the current crop of cookie cutter, charter oriented designs that make too many compromises, in my humble opinion, to the sport of sailing. It's that simple. So I think we're in violent agreement.

Dave
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Old 21-12-2015, 18:31   #57
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Re: Helm positions

Dave

I think the differences lay within your reference of sailing as a sport which by definition is

"an activity involving physical exertion and skill in which an individual or team competes against another or others for entertainment."

The vast majority of sailors are not interested in competing with anybody, and as such, providing their boat is safe and comfortable are quite content with the product offering.

You are surely correct that for those viewing sailing as a sport there are too many compromises, but for the vast majority of those that see it simply as an enjoyable pastime this is not the case.

Fortunately for the small minority of sailing sportsman there are always boats that fit their requirements.
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Old 21-12-2015, 19:04   #58
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Re: Helm positions

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Dave

I think the differences lay within your reference of sailing as a sport which by definition is

"an activity involving physical exertion and skill in which an individual or team competes against another or others for entertainment."

The vast majority of sailors are not interested in competing with anybody, and as such, providing their boat is safe and comfortable are quite content with the product offering.

You are surely correct that for those viewing sailing as a sport there are too many compromises, but for the vast majority of those that see it simply as an enjoyable pastime this is not the case.

Fortunately for the small minority of sailing sportsman there are always boats that fit their requirements.
That might be a genuine dictionary definition, but I don't find it helpful. That's why 'sports cars' were named as such, because they are more satisfying to drive, not because they compete with each other. If I'm reaching back and forth across an anchorage on a sailboard, I consider that to be a 'sport', perhaps motivating a bit of adrenaline?

We all want a different level of compromise, but I'm fairly sure that most sailors (those who have experienced the satisfaction of sailing) will be looking for a compromise design that allows them to enjoy the subtle acceleration when sail trim is tweaked - even if that's only occasionally..
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Old 21-12-2015, 19:29   #59
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Re: Helm positions

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There is no commercial agenda Manta's have not been in production since 2009. I am just spending the time and effort to give the readership my personal opinion based on my experience in the industry.
Ok fair enough then and good on you. To me at least your first few posts came across as a cruiser with 38 years experience and a very strong and exclusive opinion on helm set up. Not an ex boat builder of a particular design and there's a decent difference I reckon.

The long term cruiser would have probably been across quite a few designs over such a long period and probably be more circumspect on the pros and cons of each.

As a boat builder of a particular design as you say you are responding to a particular market segments desires. It is what it is but its not all or even most long term cruisers like you said.

There are plenty of other cruisers that have a different set of priorities and to each their own.
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Old 21-12-2015, 19:33   #60
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Re: Helm positions

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Dave

I think the differences lay within your reference of sailing as a sport which by definition is

"an activity involving physical exertion and skill in which an individual or team competes against another or others for entertainment."

The vast majority of sailors are not interested in competing with anybody, and as such, providing their boat is safe and comfortable are quite content with the product offering.

You are surely correct that for those viewing sailing as a sport there are too many compromises, but for the vast majority of those that see it simply as an enjoyable pastime this is not the case.

Fortunately for the small minority of sailing sportsman there are always boats that fit their requirements.
Likewise I dont think that definition of sport applies here either. What i take it to mean is that the sailing is an objective in itself not just a means to getting to a destination. As such we want it to be enjoyable. We are all at different points on that spectrum that's all.

The joy in the journey vs the destination and all that stuff...
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