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Old 04-02-2015, 02:32   #1
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Helia or Lagoon in light wind conditions

Hello,
I am a newbie in this Forum and I find it wonderful to read about so many experiences and learn a lot.
We plan to buy a cat to sail with our Kids in the Med. There we have often light wind.

We like the Helia 44 but saw it only on a fair, not sailed it (but plan to do it). We test the Lagoon 450 for 2 weeks and like the space - but it seems to be a little bit clumsy. She did not really sail under Bft 4. Perhaps that was because of the condition of the sails (charter boat)?

Because of the lighter weight we think also about a L 400 (but would miss the flybridge) or an used Lagoon 440.

What do you have for experiences with Boats like that in light wind conditions?




Fair winds, Uli
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Old 04-02-2015, 03:31   #2
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Re: Helia or Lagoon in light wind conditions

small winds & waves that move boat no good for cat. Jerky mast movement dumps airflow.

bigger waves more wind is needed.

monos better in this respect.

Lesser above effect, better cats go.

I sailed lagoon 410 (predcessor of L 400) & Belize 43 predcessor of helia 44 interchangeably for several weeks in a row to feel the difference and no doubt Helia wins. More sailing boat. But difference not big enough to justify space sacrifises.
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Old 04-02-2015, 04:02   #3
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Re: Helia or Lagoon in light wind conditions

Yes. Also in comparsion Lagoon 450 and Bahia 46 they seems to be from differnet planets, concerning sailing qualities on the one hand and space on the other.

But space and design of the Helia seems now to be similar to the Lagoons.

And how is the comparsion concerning light wind conditions between the different Lagoons?
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Old 04-02-2015, 04:41   #4
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Re: Helia or Lagoon in light wind conditions

I would recommend a code zero for the lagoon if regularly sailing in a light wind area...........or bigger fuel tanks to give a bit more range.

I recently did a 1200 mile delivery of a lagoon 440 with the bigger mast, we struggled to make more than 3-4 knots in less than 10 knots of wind as is common in the south china sea and gulf of Thailand.
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Old 04-02-2015, 08:29   #5
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Re: Helia or Lagoon in light wind conditions

For lagoon 450, you need minimum 10 knot speed of wind . In Med with 15 knot of wind , 90 wind , GV horn, sea Bf4, you have 7 or 8 knot speed .
Sorry for my language if it isn't correct but , i'm french . i can help you if you need, because we have a 450 and we live on board with our children . We know correctly the 450.
Patrice on ALOHA
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Old 04-02-2015, 10:21   #6
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Re: Helia or Lagoon in light wind conditions

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Originally Posted by Ulstue View Post
Yes. Also in comparsion Lagoon 450 and Bahia 46 they seems to be from differnet planets, concerning sailing qualities on the one hand and space on the other.
Are you saying the Bahia was the better light wind boat?
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Old 04-02-2015, 10:41   #7
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Re: Helia or Lagoon in light wind conditions

Thank you for your replies.

Allow me to ask back: Atoll, did you use a Code 0 with the 440 in the china sea and gulf of Thailand? Otherwise it seems that the Lagoon 440 has a bit better light wind performance than the 450.

Are there any other experiences?

Cataloha, that corresponds to our experiences with the Lagoon 450. Do you use other fore sail as the standard genua? I understand your English well; I hope you do mine too. We are from Switzerland, my wife is a native french speaker.

Sand crab, yes I would say, that the Bahia was a better sailer in most wind conditions, but I haven’t sailed Bahia and L450 in strong winds. That experience corresponds with the technical data, Bahias waterline is similar to the Lagoon 450, so the sail area, but Bahia is much lighter.

I would be very happy to read about the experiences with Helia 44.
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Old 04-02-2015, 10:53   #8
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Re: Helia or Lagoon in light wind conditions

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Originally Posted by Ulstue View Post
......


I would be very happy to read about the experiences with Helia 44.

The Larrikin
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Old 04-02-2015, 12:31   #9
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Re: Helia or Lagoon in light wind conditions

Thank you, I have already read the different threads about Helia 44 and Lagoon 440 / 450 here at the Cruisers Forum. What I now are looking for is information about characteristics and comparisons in light wind conditions.
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Old 04-02-2015, 13:30   #10
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Re: Helia or Lagoon in light wind conditions

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ulstue View Post
Thank you for your replies.

Allow me to ask back: Atoll, did you use a Code 0 with the 440 in the china sea and gulf of Thailand? Otherwise it seems that the Lagoon 440 has a bit better light wind performance than the 450.

Are there any other experiences?

Cataloha, that corresponds to our experiences with the Lagoon 450. Do you use other fore sail as the standard genua? I understand your English well; I hope you do mine too. We are from Switzerland, my wife is a native french speaker.

Sand crab, yes I would say, that the Bahia was a better sailer in most wind conditions, but I havent sailed Bahia and L450 in strong winds. That experience corresponds with the technical data, Bahias waterline is similar to the Lagoon 450, so the sail area, but Bahia is much lighter.

I would be very happy to read about the experiences with Helia 44.
unfortunately no, we did not have a code zero,winds were very light land and sea breezes as is common in the transition season.

the new owner will be chartering his vessel out of pattaya during the NE monsoon,and I feel that he would greatly benefit from having the code zero,so as to be able to sail in the light winds that are common on that streach of coast,otherwise he is liable to end up motoring everywhere!

about the only point of sailing that got the speed above 6 knots was a close reach.

in my opinion the 440 should come with a code zero as standard to give it a bit of all round versatility,and would greatly benefit from it for downwind tradewind sailing as well.
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Old 04-02-2015, 14:05   #11
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Re: Helia or Lagoon in light wind conditions

Hi, i have never sailed on Bahia . I used sometimes a genaker in light wind . It is easy to use . The 450 is very confortable to live .
Bonjour, je n' ai jamais naviguer sur un Bahia . J' utilise parfois un genaker dans le grand largue . Il est facile utiliser . Le 450 est trs confortable vivre .
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Old 04-02-2015, 14:57   #12
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Re: Helia or Lagoon in light wind conditions

I actually like cats and I prefer sailing them than monos in light winds. BUT cat or mono, a boat WILL NOT sail in light winds unless she has light wind sails onboard. A code zero like genoa sail for upwind work and some sort of fuller kite for off the wind courses.

Motoring a fine option too, esp. on cats that normally will have 2 engines.

As Atoll said, +1!

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Old 04-02-2015, 15:56   #13
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Re: Helia or Lagoon in light wind conditions

We sail in F3 with SOG typically ~4kn avg. We can tweak that to 5kn if the wind's 60-120 apparent and we hoist the gennaker. Light winds are fairly common where we now do our cruising (around the OZ east coast) and our fuel consumption proves we rarely motor.

We enjoy the bigger winds too. There are plenty of >200nm days recorded in our log. We do our long-range voyage planning around a 5kn avg, but we always beat that. We averaged 6.6kn crossing the Atlantic and Pacific. For coastal trips, we plan a 6kn average and, again, we invariably exceed that.

Lagoons are certainly spacious vessels (as are FP's really) but our experience suggests the L440 is a very good sailing vessel...and very seaworthy in heavy weather. We don't race, but our observations of other vessels on similar/parallel course would suggest there is little material difference in 'performance' across similar vessel lengths.

The greatest sailing 'handicap' for the L440 is sea state. If we are bashing into waves, our SOG will be sharply reduced -- Perhaps that's a reflection of weight and wetted areas -- but if the waves are pushing us along our SOG will rise just as sharply. Our top speed surfing (achieved 3 times, but we hope not to repeat as it was accompanied by some pretty big seas!) was >21kn.

We happily recommend the L440 as a great combination of sailing and comfort...and we wish the OP well in your purchase!
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Old 05-02-2015, 01:30   #14
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Re: Helia or Lagoon in light wind conditions

I tend to find that our L450 does about half the wind speed in boat speed up to about 9-10 kts boat speed. The gennaker helps and gives about 1kt extra boat speed. The best wind range for the L450 is about 15-25kts, she feels just right in this range. However I don't like doing less than 7 kts and if so I start one engine at a cost of about 5 ltrs per hour.

Every yacht is a compromise. The L450 has phenomenal space but is a cruiser and will make solid daily miles if you use an engine when the wind drops.


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Old 05-02-2015, 04:03   #15
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Re: Helia or Lagoon in light wind conditions

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I tend to find that our L450 does about half the wind speed in boat speed up to about 9-10 kts boat speed. The gennaker helps and gives about 1kt extra boat speed.
Is there any difference in gennaker help when different sea state ?

Say if 10 kn apparent you sail 5 without and 6 with gennaker in flat sea
If sea are choppy you may be doing 3.5 withhout and 4.5 with gennaker or is contribution more or less than 1 kn?
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