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Old 22-10-2011, 00:22   #31
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Re: Heaving-to in a Catamaran

Heaving to - no jib - for a seawind 1000/xl/xl2

To hove-to your Seawind completely furl the Jib, it plays no part. Set the Main Traveler fully out with Main Sheet on. Head the Main Sail directly into the wind, stop the boat and lash the Helm on full lock. Head to wind will be around 40 degrees off the bow. The vessel will drift backwards until the Main Sail drives the boat forward at around 60 degrees. The rudders will then turn the vessel into the wind and stall at around 20 degrees off the bow. You are now fully under control in an active hove-to position.
To hove-to effectively, sufficient Main Sail needs to be set to drive the vessel forward. In Gale or Storm conditions this is definitely 3rd Reef but in Squall conditions the technique is effective with 2nd Reef also. Of course you need sufficient sea room to drift down wind at around 1 Knot.
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Old 22-10-2011, 00:24   #32
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Re: Heaving-to in a Catamaran

Outstanding post Tim! Very much appreciated here.
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Old 22-10-2011, 08:10   #33
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Re: Heaving-to in a Catamaran

I have to readily admit I'm no expert on heaving to. But, I doubt I would use Factors method. The problem I see with it is that you really have to be at the helm. There is a chance that while the boat is "backing up" and waiting for the rudders to pull the stern to windward, you could go through irons and rapidly jibe. The few times I have actually hove to, the boat never stopped making forward progress, rather crabbed from stall to making way at around 2 kts. What would be the reason to not backwind the jib?

Tim, that was an excellent post and I really should practice the drill much more. It is really inconceivable that with two engines, I wouldn't be firing them up immediatly upon MOB. From there, the skill level required gets cut in half. With the size of my cat and depending on sea conditions and the MOB, I would probably be better taking 90 seconds to drop my main and then make the recovery. Thanks.
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Old 22-10-2011, 09:39   #34
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Re: Heaving-to in a Catamaran

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eleven View Post
For the sake of repetition, and from reading alone, particularly here,
a sea anchor is meant to hold the boat still in the water
a drogue is meant to slow the boat

For a cat/multi they are so much slippier than a mono (mainly because they are lighter and built to slip easily through the water for speed in fair weather) that they run too fast down big waves, particularly in strong winds.
The most comfortable ride for boat and crew is a little off the downwind course but as seas/wind builds the risk of sledging down the wave into the trough and burying a bow or more there becomes more likely. A drogue will control the maximum speed, a tiny little storm stay/jib will help to maintain minimum speed (steerage way) in the troughs and to prevent backsliding on the next climb.
Coming off the true down wind by much just increases the risk of a bow tucking into the rising water ahead. If the storm worsens (predicted or not) then the sea anchor reduces downwind speed considerably but really should be over the bows, strung from both bows , and adjusted to meet incoming breakers dead on the bows. Chafing and even heat burn and cleat failure need to be planned for, they may well happen.
Form my own experience in an old Prout running across the seas is the best way of getting rolled, and cats don't do 360's (40deg of heel is beyond half way to the neutral stability point).
Into wind is an option to maintain some headway or claw off a lee shore, as close hauled as your boat will go but that's unlikely to work in a proper gale.
Downwind with the brakes on (unless you want to go that way of course) but boats and crews vary. Being at the helm and life belted and roped to something solid on the boat (with a knife taped to your thigh to cut the rope if she flips) is the only way to learn.
Most advice is to manage the speed, keeping it generally below hull speed, and between too slow to manouvre in the troughs, and too fast for safety on the down slopes.
Mooring lines required to secure the drogue, fatter the better, and some weight to stop it skipping over the surface behind you (that spare light anchor in the aft locker for kedging off sandbanks would be ideal).
'Maxing Out' has some excellent videos and reports on this sort of stuff. Go check it out.
From what I've read Every One is nervous in a storm for the first day, then just fed up of waiting for Neptune to calm herself down a bit.
Note - All my sailing has been in sight of land, f7 gusting 8 in a shallow bay my worst sailing, and very little at night. I've read and listened a lot to be prepared. All I've learnt is a couple of tricks that might help, and the sure knowledge that it's far worse the first time it happens to you.
Respect to the Sea!
G'day, we are just across the water from you in Cowes.
Being a Mono-Hull Sailor now considering a Cat, I appreciate your info'.
Cheers.
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Old 22-10-2011, 14:12   #35
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Re: Heaving-to in a Catamaran

Quote:
Originally Posted by Palarran View Post
What would be the reason to not backwind the jib?
Self tacking jib.

We can "heave to" under just main also. Or with the jib backwinded.

Basically you're just deliberately putting the boat "in irons".
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Old 22-10-2011, 15:25   #36
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Re: Heaving-to in a Catamaran

Mines selftacking and all I would need to do is run the traveler block over to the other side before tacking. I've been in irons three times on a cruising cat and had a heck of a time getting out. It seemed to put undue stress on the rudders being pushed backwards. I haven't had an issue with Palarran being caught in irons, most likely due to the weight. To each their own but it just doesn't make sense to me.

Maybe the difference is heaving to in order to stop a boat in mild conditions compared to gale conditions. I'll have to give it a try next week.
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Old 22-10-2011, 20:02   #37
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Re: Heaving-to in a Catamaran

Palarran, I certainly agree that a cat's twin engines shift the balance in favor of a successful recovery, but I wouldn't be so quick to plan on taking the time to drop the main. Here's why: whatever method you use to get to the MOB, there comes the time when the victim must come aboard, or be brought aboard. With no sail up, the only way you can maintain position is with your engines, and in much of a wind it can get difficult to create that moment where you are in good position for a recovery, with your engines either shut down or in neutral. Heaving to gives you that steady, balanced position from which to effect the recovery. Even if you simply heave to the moment the person goes overboard, forgetting the maneuver that I described, you will at least stop relatively close to the victim. You could then start your engines and maneuver to your desired position, sails still hoisted, and then let the boat heave to at that spot. Particularly if you are the only one (or the only competent one) left on the boat, the actual recovery is likely to go much more smoothly. Double that if someone has to go in the water. Remember, if that should be necessary, you will need to keep the boat passively stopped and in position.

You have thought of how you will bring the MOB on board, right? The sugar scoops are inviting, if there is not too much sea running so they don't slam up and down, but they are mighty close to your props, which, if you are depending on your engines, may not be in neutral. The sides of the hull are pretty high. You probably have something like a LifeSling, but you may need a halyard for that, and the main halyard, which is what you would use in the relatively stable area just aft of amidships, is probably shackled to the headboard way high up and out of convenient reach. Of course, it will definitely be shackled to the headboard if you have just dropped the main.

Have you ever tried the "elevator"method to get someone aboard? You run a line from bow to stern, hanging a couple of feet deep in the water, in such a way that you can winch in one end of it. The MOB steps on the line and when you winch it in, he or she is raised up to where it is possible to roll under a lifeline or otherwise be helped aboard. It is surprisingly effective. Of course, the upper body must be supported until the victim is high enough to reach the toerail or lifelines, but the LifeSling can easily do that, without a halyard. The LifeSling, or any other lifejacket, could have been thrown a few feet to the MOB when he or she came alongside.

Getting back to approaching under power, if you were already motoring, you wouldn't have the option of using your sails. Here in the BVI, we pick up lots of moorings, and I have always thought that there is much merit, if you still have one other crewmember aboard, to simply motor upwind to the MOB just like a mooring (for which you have had lots of practice). When the MOB is dead ahead between the bows, your crewperson could almost hand the LifeSling down, and then lead the MOB around to the side while the engines were shifted into neutral. The MOB could not slip away, as the LifeSling would have him or her. Then, if the wave action permitted, the MOB could come aboard astern. On a rough day, the MOB could be brought aboard using the elevator method, engines in neutral in either case.

Lots of the fun of having a boat comes from experimenting to see just what you and your vessel can easily do....there is always some tactic or another, although it varies from boat to boat.

I will close with a very sad story concerning taking the time to drop your sails. Back in the 1980's, when I was SF Bay based, I spent an agonizing night listening to the VHF as a Canadian man just outside the Golden Gate (and the Coast Guard helo and boats that came to help) lost reference to the position of his overboard wife. It was almost a flat calm when she went over, but he took a minute or so to drop the jib. In that time, he lost sight of her. About an hour later, they did find the cushions he had thrown over, but she was never seen again. That is when I got to thinking seriously about, and practicing, how to get close to someone while keeping the boat under control, maybe singlehanded, with the sails up.

I was also having my own little adventure at the same time, which yielded a parallel lesson. I had dropped a fender overboard as I was approaching the marina around midnight. I was motoring - remember, it was fairly calm - so I thought nothing of turning around and going back for it. Just before I was about to shift into neutral, when the fender was abeam of the forward bulkhead, I was shocked to see the fender get sucked right under the boat and back to the prop, fouling its line in both the prop and the rudder! Ever since, I have had tremendous respect for a prop's suction. And that was with a small 15 Hp engine! With the water too cold to safely jump in, and with the prop thoroughly fouled and the rudder just marginally useful, I had to change my plans and sail for the marina in Berkeley, about five miles away. It was the only marina I could think of that I was confident of sailing into with a badly impaired rudder. But, remember, there was very little to no wind. I did finally make it in, drifting and ghosting along with my fender in tow, just before dawn, and just as the Coast Guard had escorted the Canadian into a San Francisco marina. My own problems were insignificant compared to the hours of tragedy I had listened to as they looked for the Canadian's wife. It was a very sad night, but one that was also loaded with lessons.

So, next week when you get to go play with the boat, enjoy your experimenting; we will be eager to hear what you find she, and you, plan to do when put to the test.

Cheers,
Tim

Cheers,
Tim
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Old 22-10-2011, 20:37   #38
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Re: Heaving-to in a Catamaran

That's another outstanding and informative post Tim. Thank you very much for sharing your experience(s).
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Old 22-10-2011, 22:07   #39
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Re: Heaving-to in a Catamaran

Dang Tim, if you keep posting this stuff there will be no reason to attend ASA classes or buy "Sailing for Dummies"

I had to blow the leaves off my yard and spent some time thinking about the heave to maneuver. I'll try it both ways if it's calm enough but I really can't see how my specific boat will handle it without a jib. I also still have no idea why I wouldn't use the jib, but that's besides the point.

There is no doubt you've practiced the below more then your average joe. I'm going to add my thoughts about it inside your quote.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tim Schaaf View Post
Palarran, I certainly agree that a cat's twin engines shift the balance in favor of a successful recovery, but I wouldn't be so quick to plan on taking the time to drop the main. Here's why: whatever method you use to get to the MOB, there comes the time when the victim must come aboard, or be brought aboard. With no sail up, the only way you can maintain position is with your engines, and in much of a wind it can get difficult to create that moment where you are in good position for a recovery, True with your engines either shut down Why? or in neutral of course. Heaving to gives you that steady, balanced position from which to effect the recovery. Even if you simply heave to the moment the person goes overboard, forgetting the maneuver that I described, you will at least stop relatively close to the victim. You could then start your engines and maneuver to your desired position, sails still hoisted, and then let the boat heave to at that spot. Particularly if you are the only one (or the only competent one) left on the boat, the actual recovery is likely to go much more smoothly. Double that if someone has to go in the water. Remember, if that should be necessary, you will need to keep the boat passively stopped and in position. I get what your saying, but for me the negatives COULD override the positives. Like in the moment of recovery the boat is hit with a wave, turned, the wind fills the sail, and your now 100 feet past the MOB. From what I've read, the typical reason to leave the main up is that if you foul your prop, you still have power. With two motors, that reason is removed.

You have thought of how you will bring the MOB on board, right? The sugar scoops are inviting, if there is not too much sea running so they don't slam up and down, but they are mighty close to your props, which, if you are depending on your engines, may not be in neutral. I have two life slings, and your absolutely right, the sugar scoops are mighty inviting. My props are a fair distance away, both horizontally, and vertically.The sides of the hull are pretty high. You probably have something like a LifeSling, but you may need a halyard for that, and the main halyard, which is what you would use in the relatively stable area just aft of amidships, is probably shackled to the headboard way high up and out of convenient reach. Of course, it will definitely be shackled to the headboard if you have just dropped the main.

Have you ever tried the "elevator"method to get someone aboard? You run a line from bow to stern, hanging a couple of feet deep in the water, in such a way that you can winch in one end of it. The MOB steps on the line and when you winch it in, he or she is raised up to where it is possible to roll under a lifeline or otherwise be helped aboard.To be honest Tim, if I was able to do this method, I'm positive I can just pull them onto the sugar scoop. It is surprisingly effective. Of course, the upper body must be supported until the victim is high enough to reach the toerail or lifelines, but the LifeSling can easily do that, without a halyard. The LifeSling, or any other lifejacket, could have been thrown a few feet to the MOB when he or she came alongside.

Getting back to approaching under power, if you were already motoring, you wouldn't have the option of using your sails. Here in the BVI, we pick up lots of moorings, and I have always thought that there is much merit, if you still have one other crewmember aboard, to simply motor upwind to the MOB just like a mooring (for which you have had lots of practice). When the MOB is dead ahead between the bows, your crewperson could almost hand the LifeSling down, and then lead the MOB around to the side while the engines were shifted into neutral. The MOB could not slip away, as the LifeSling would have him or her. Then, if the wave action permitted, the MOB could come aboard astern. On a rough day, the MOB could be brought aboard using the elevator method, engines in neutral in either case. I don't think I'd approach the MOB between the hulls. If their conscious, it would freak them out. I would really use the lifesling like a ski tow rope and circle the MOB. They grab the line, get in the sling or pull themselves to the back.

Lots of the fun of having a boat comes from experimenting to see just what you and your vessel can easily do....there is always some tactic or another, although it varies from boat to boat.

I will close with a very sad story concerning taking the time to drop your sails. Back in the 1980's, when I was SF Bay based, I spent an agonizing night listening to the VHF as a Canadian man just outside the Golden Gate (and the Coast Guard helo and boats that came to help) lost reference to the position of his overboard wife. It was almost a flat calm when she went over, but he took a minute or so to drop the jib. In that time, he lost sight of her. About an hour later, they did find the cushions he had thrown over, but she was never seen again. That is when I got to thinking seriously about, and practicing, how to get close to someone while keeping the boat under control, maybe singlehanded, with the sails up.

I was also having my own little adventure at the same time, which yielded a parallel lesson. I had dropped a fender overboard as I was approaching the marina around midnight. I was motoring - remember, it was fairly calm - so I thought nothing of turning around and going back for it. Just before I was about to shift into neutral, when the fender was abeam of the forward bulkhead, I was shocked to see the fender get sucked right under the boat and back to the prop, fouling its line in both the prop and the rudder! Ever since, I have had tremendous respect for a prop's suction. And that was with a small 15 Hp engine! With the water too cold to safely jump in, and with the prop thoroughly fouled and the rudder just marginally useful, I had to change my plans and sail for the marina in Berkeley, about five miles away. It was the only marina I could think of that I was confident of sailing into with a badly impaired rudder. But, remember, there was very little to no wind. I did finally make it in, drifting and ghosting along with my fender in tow, just before dawn, and just as the Coast Guard had escorted the Canadian into a San Francisco marina. My own problems were insignificant compared to the hours of tragedy I had listened to as they looked for the Canadian's wife. It was a very sad night, but one that was also loaded with lessons. Sad story.

So, next week when you get to go play with the boat, enjoy your experimenting; we will be eager to hear what you find she, and you, plan to do when put to the test. I'll do that. In fact, I haven't hove to on Palarran yet so this is a good motivation

Cheers,
Tim

Cheers,
Tim

Thanks for all the info Tim.
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Old 22-10-2011, 23:04   #40
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Re: Heaving-to in a Catamaran

Actually, for the purposes of MOB drills, I make the assumption that the jib is up, so all of the heaving to that I have described for these maneuvers is done that way. Sometimes we are reefed down.

We don't actually practice very much, since it is all pretty simple, but if the guests on our charters are serious sailors and are interested, the Admiral is always willing to take the plunge and leap off. It is much more convincing to do an actual recovery of a person, rather than a cushion or whatever, much more realistic. So much so that, on one memorable occasion, a power boat zoomed over toward Marsha to save her! They must have thought we had had a major argument and Marsha was committing suicide....they were relieved to discover what we were up to.

It is not unusual for some of the guests to get into the flow and jump over themselves. And, I have some of them steer. Of course, we also ALWAYS do this when we are doing an ASA Cruising Catamaran (114) course.

Particularly when the Trades are honking and we are really zooming along, I am told that it is quite a rush to see, from sea level, Jet Stream come charging at you and then suddenly glide to a stop quite close. Wives, in particular, seem quite encouraged by taking part in either end of this exercise, gaining the knowledge and confidence that they will, in fact, be rescued if they go over, and that they can do a rescue, themselves. All in all, it is quite fun, and can be something of a show-stopper. I highly recommend it, but do practice it a few times before you take it on Broadway.

Cheers,
Tim
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Old 23-10-2011, 12:10   #41
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Re: Heaving-to in a Catamaran

Tim,

Thank you so much for your input.

I have always been a fan of the "quick stop" of whatever kind as my early training was to sail away and throw a line of "breadcrumbs". That never seemed very good to to me but there was always a bunch on board and so someone who was "free" could just stand and point. Fine except in real life like you describe.

Thank you.
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Old 25-10-2011, 14:51   #42
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Re: Heaving-to in a Catamaran

Can't say I know enough to have an opinion regarding heaving to, but wrt deploying a sea anchor, I would suggest that you take a close look at your cabin entry and determine what would happen if you turned it towards a dangerous wave. My cat would certainly more likely survive rough seas from the bow rather than from the stern.
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Old 29-10-2011, 20:00   #43
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Re: Heaving-to in a Catamaran

Dulcesuenos,

"question is on a cat would you want to attatch these to the stern or bow?"
Depends on what you want to do. If you're tired, want some rest and have plenty of sea room, you might want to deploy the sea anchor off the bow, paying out a distance of rode that puts the sea anchor in sink with the boat, so that they are both in the troff or top of the waves at the same time. Another trick I saw relative to the sea anchor, is to run the rode from one side of the boat back to a winch, THEN run a line from a winch on the OTHER side of the boat with a large block on the end to the bow. Put the rode through the block off the bow, now you can adjust the angle that the boat faces.

Regarding heavy weather on a cat. I would elect to deploy a Jordan Series Drogue off the stern and run with the seas. I don't like the idea of sitting in a mess, I would rather be moving. The Jordan Series Drogue was developed in concert with the Coast Guard and I don't think that a boat has EVER broached using one. A couple of problems with the drogue. First you have to have a strong point to attach it to the transom. Most boats don't come with an adequate strong point to attach a drogue. I installed mooring bitts on the outsides of my decks, just forward of the transom steps to attach the drogue bridle. Taking care to leave a clear rope path up to the winches on either side of the salon top, to winch the drogue back in. Mounting the mooring bitts to the deck is another long and involved process, at least to do it right.
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Old 30-10-2011, 16:07   #44
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Re: Heaving-to in a Catamaran

Thank you all for your in-put. Good ideas here!
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Old 30-10-2011, 17:25   #45
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Re: Heaving-to in a Catamaran

Fully concur! Excellent series of posts Tim

Regards

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