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Old 09-06-2016, 09:55   #16
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Re: Heaters for Arctic waters - Recomendations ?

A cat is different because all the heat will accumulate in the salon "upstairs". For this reason I would go with forced air, probably Webasto is my favorite. I doubt I would even run ducts to the salon, but have them exit in the hulls below. Maybe one as a foot warmer up stairs near the favorite spot.
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Old 09-06-2016, 11:29   #17
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Re: Heaters for Arctic waters - Recomendations ?

You mentioned serviceability. The only two hydronic brands I have experience with are Webasto and Hurricane. My friend has a Webasto and ran into trouble when it would quit on him and kick out an error code. The manual just said to call a dealer to reset it.

I have a Hurricane and am very impressed by both the amount of info on self servicing (and it never just locks up), and the helpfulness of the service guys on the phone. They are great at helping you do it yourself.

I would think that in a Cat, you'll want something with zone heating, like hydronic or forced air. Hydronic takes up less space since you only install small hot water hoses instead of large ducts.
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Old 09-06-2016, 11:50   #18
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Re: Heaters for Arctic waters - Recomendations ?

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Originally Posted by k. michael marquardt View Post
The salt in beach wood will corrode the heater and the stack if you don't have a place to store the wood and have it flushed by rain for a couple of years.
Fair point and perfectly true but a cast iron stove with stainless stack will still last 5-10years of daily use and are relatively cheap to buy. How much diesel at $5+ per gal will you have saved? (possibly less in Alaska!). I suspect it would still be costing less than the service bill on a blown air one. For simplicity I would stick with something like the dickenson, defiantly nothing requiring electrical input. Bear in mind that above 55deg the stove becomes an item of essential safety gear not just for comfort during much of the year.
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Old 09-06-2016, 12:22   #19
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Re: Heaters for Arctic waters - Recomendations ?

I've heard (and I haven't tried this - PLEASE do some more research) that the diesel drip dickinson's can also burn wood in an emergency.
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Old 09-06-2016, 13:36   #20
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Re: Heaters for Arctic waters - Recomendations ?

Thanks everyone for the tips and comments.

We are still in the purchasing stages of this plan, but in essence, buying then equipping a Lagoon 42 or 450 (TBA) for High Latitude exploring, and more specifically, Photography.

Bonkers ? possibly. The right boat for that adventure ? Some here would say not. Personally I think it will do just fine.

But hey, that's sailing...

PS: In case some thing I'm totally mad at this and have no idea what to expect... I've been to both Arctic and Antarctic multiple times by Sea. Just not on MY boat !

Will certainly post up when we decide and the experiences obtained.

Regards
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Old 09-06-2016, 15:43   #21
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Smile Re: Heaters for Arctic waters - Recomendations ?

In my opinion insulation is just as important as the heater. It is no use having a heating system without adequate insulation to keep it in. We did over winter in the Arctic (at 72 deg) and found with our steel mono with 1 1/2" polystyrene insulation that it was inadequate when temps dropped below -25 deg Celsius. For your information the oldest day was -56 deg without wind chill taken into account. We had a Dickinson (Lofoten) heater. There is no doubt that the eberspacher heaters give more and quicker heat but our decision was to go the safe and sure (dinosaur?) method as I felt that there was to much that could go wrong with the hydronic systems and the voltage requirements to intolerant.
Things to keep in mind:
1.Even keeping batteries alive in the high - temperture's takes a lot of energy.
2. The window area on a cat would be a huge heat loss and I feel you would need to look at some form of double glazing. (Cut to fit foam will help as when the sun disappears for a few months you don't need to look out. Just remember that one small gap can let out 80% of your heating)
3. For a summer cruise you don't really need a heater at all. It will just make life a little more comfortable and a hydronic heater would be the better choice.
4. Find out the real amount of fuel that it will take to run the system you chose, from someone that has used one, not just the selling companies figures. When it gets down to -40 for a few weeks on end you are not running your heater on low and if you are iced in for 9 months and just use your heater sparingly it will use a lot of fuel. Which brings us back to the batteries. You need some heat to stop them from freezing so you cannot afford to shut down the system to conserve fuel.
5. If your engines are salt water cooled they will be useless as pumps do not move ice.

Someone may chip in here and say there are now batteries that can handle extreme low temperatures. That would be a plus.

Possibilities are endless. For example you may winter next to civilization and thus be able to purchase diesel rather than have on board when iced in a few thousand litres. You could cut a hole in the ice (first year ice can reach 2.1 meters) for water to run and cool your engines. Your head outlet will be frozen. No trouble if you are away from civilization but a problem if you aren't. Consider also a sealed "porch" where you can step into, shut a door behind you, then open a door in front to step outside. Otherwise a large proportion of your heat will disappear every time you enter and exit.

I am not trying to be negative but just to point some things out that you may not have considered. We wish you all the best with your plans. Winter is the best time up there.

Hope this helps from someone that has done it.
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Old 10-06-2016, 00:37   #22
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Re: Heaters for Arctic waters - Recomendations ?

I find the air movement from forced air makes a huge difference in eliminating cold zones and in drying out your boat. A well set up forced air furnace will draw some air from interior (already warm) for efficiency and some from outside (drier)... makes ourvwhole boat feel instantly drier and therefore charmer. And did I mention no cold zones? But yes it does use power, but not much after startup.

You don't hear name as often but we love our Wallas furnace... one in each hull would be a bomber setup, 3.6 total amps to run them both on highest air flow, 1.6 to run them both at lowest setting.

Disclaimer: have never used anything else so have no points of comparison to Wallas, don't sail in the arctic and have a monohull
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Old 10-06-2016, 00:48   #23
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Re: Heaters for Arctic waters - Recomendations ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fine Tolerance View Post
In my opinion insulation is just as important as the heater. It is no use having a heating system without adequate insulation to keep it in. We did over winter in the Arctic (at 72 deg) and found with our steel mono with 1 1/2" polystyrene insulation that it was inadequate when temps dropped below -25 deg Celsius. For your information the oldest day was -56 deg without wind chill taken into account. We had a Dickinson (Lofoten) heater. There is no doubt that the eberspacher heaters give more and quicker heat but our decision was to go the safe and sure (dinosaur?) method as I felt that there was to much that could go wrong with the hydronic systems and the voltage requirements to intolerant.
Things to keep in mind:
1.Even keeping batteries alive in the high - temperture's takes a lot of energy.
2. The window area on a cat would be a huge heat loss and I feel you would need to look at some form of double glazing. (Cut to fit foam will help as when the sun disappears for a few months you don't need to look out. Just remember that one small gap can let out 80% of your heating)
3. For a summer cruise you don't really need a heater at all. It will just make life a little more comfortable and a hydronic heater would be the better choice.
4. Find out the real amount of fuel that it will take to run the system you chose, from someone that has used one, not just the selling companies figures. When it gets down to -40 for a few weeks on end you are not running your heater on low and if you are iced in for 9 months and just use your heater sparingly it will use a lot of fuel. Which brings us back to the batteries. You need some heat to stop them from freezing so you cannot afford to shut down the system to conserve fuel.
5. If your engines are salt water cooled they will be useless as pumps do not move ice.

Someone may chip in here and say there are now batteries that can handle extreme low temperatures. That would be a plus.

Possibilities are endless. For example you may winter next to civilization and thus be able to purchase diesel rather than have on board when iced in a few thousand litres. You could cut a hole in the ice (first year ice can reach 2.1 meters) for water to run and cool your engines. Your head outlet will be frozen. No trouble if you are away from civilization but a problem if you aren't. Consider also a sealed "porch" where you can step into, shut a door behind you, then open a door in front to step outside. Otherwise a large proportion of your heat will disappear every time you enter and exit.

I am not trying to be negative but just to point some things out that you may not have considered. We wish you all the best with your plans. Winter is the best time up there.

Hope this helps from someone that has done it.
^ second that!
What comes to batteries modern cells as Li ion or whatever are pretty much useless in cold, LA dying around -30 thou much of their juice is gone long before.. But having batteries deep in the bilge keeps them warmer as long as there's liquid water under your keel.

BR Teddy
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Old 10-06-2016, 02:04   #24
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Re: Heaters for Arctic waters - Recomendations ?

I'll add some random observations to what has already been said.

* Heat will go up. You need to focus on heating the hulls (that are lower than the saloon), and maybe the sleeping cabins at the ends of the hulls. This may mean moving hot air or hot water to the ends of the hulls.

* Catamarans have large surface, large windows, and typically they don't have much insulation. Your saloon will need a lot of heating. The heating system should be therefore more efficient than for a monohull. You may want to be able to heat one section of the boat only, an keep some other parts (like the saloon and the other hull) a bit cooler. Any extra insulation (permanent or temporary) would be good.

* Ability to use the heat produced by your motor would be good. The simplest solution (for a fresh water cooled engine) is an extra radiator with a fan.

* Catamarans are built light. You may wish to have a light heating system too. But if you have a Lagoon, they are not extremely light, and you could thus take also some heavier stuff onboard.
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Old 10-06-2016, 07:44   #25
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Re: Heaters for Arctic waters - Recomendations ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Catapault View Post
Thanks everyone for the tips and comments.

We are still in the purchasing stages of this plan, but in essence, buying then equipping a Lagoon 42 or 450 (TBA) for High Latitude exploring, and more specifically, Photography.

Bonkers ? possibly. The right boat for that adventure ? Some here would say not. Personally I think it will do just fine.
Something to consider if retrofitting is that, if you go with a hydronic system, running the ducts could be very problematic.

The right boat for that adventure? Absolutely. There are many who say that cats are unsuited for high latitudes and if you are poking around in the ice they may be right. However, if you stay away from ice then a cat will be an excellent platform. We have reinforced the bows of our boat with carbon fiber, fiberglass and wood until it looks like we have bulb bows. It made messing about around glaciers a lot less worrisome and, now that we are in lower latitudes, we feel a little more comfortable around whales and logs.
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Old 10-06-2016, 08:43   #26
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Re: Heaters for Arctic waters - Recomendations ?

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Originally Posted by Catapault View Post
All,

Looking for recommendations / Experience with Heaters for Catamerans traveling to high latitudes / arctic waters.

.........to stay well away from the ones Lagoon fits by default in their Yachts (Ebasher I think). ..............

Thoughts ?

Regards
Not sure why one would steer clear of Eberspachers.....

Mine is a 30 year old D3L ... all that I have done in the last 22 years is pulled it to bits and cleaned it up a bit about 12 years ago.... I also run a litre or so of kerosene through it every few years to decoke it.
Just now it only starts on the second attempt so I am about to order a set of felt burner rings and a new glowplug .. about 20 UKP ... from Butlertechnik.com .. I see they have new D4s on offer at 750 UKP.

OK... so they use a bit of electricity to run the fan but that isn't the end of the world. I only run mine for a short time in the morning and a few hours in the evening so it has never been an issue.
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Old 10-06-2016, 09:00   #27
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Re: Heaters for Arctic waters - Recomendations ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Catapault View Post
All,

Looking for recommendations / Experience with Heaters for Catamerans traveling to high latitudes / arctic waters.

Has anyone here done such a thing, or direct experience with the different types and have a recommendation ?


I've so far been highly recommended Kabola heaters, and to stay well away from the ones Lagoon fits by default in their Yachts (Ebasher I think).


I think the key question is. Forced Air, or Hydronic with Radiators.
I'm assuming heated by a diesel furnace of some kind.


It seems to me a Hydronic heating system would be a right pain to fit after market on a Cat ?

Thoughts ?

Regards
Lots of helpful comments here, but heating a cat is much different than a mono. On all of our fishing boats we had Dickenson diesel heaters that we'd turn on in the Spring and off in the Fall when we left Alaska. While I love Dickensons, they will not provide a satisfactory solution to heating out cat.

We're also planning some high latitude sailing. We'll install a hydronic system, probably Webasto based on the dealer more than the system. Forced air systems would require two heaters (not out of the question), and pot type heaters are best suited to monos and perhaps tris. And yes, the hydronic system will be a pain to install.

Some additional thoughts - high latitude voyaging will involve a lot of motoring. Using heat from the motor coolant will extend your range. Another approach which I'm not recommending but watching with interest is to use a vented propane heater. One boat on our dock is set up that way and headed north soon.

Going through the Northwest Passage could be done without electricity, diesel, motors, even heat, but I suspect most of us will appreciate the use of all four.

Cheers,
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Old 10-06-2016, 16:05   #28
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Re: Heaters for Arctic waters - Recomendations ?

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Originally Posted by El Pinguino View Post
Not sure why one would steer clear of Eberspachers.....
No complaints about our Eberspächer. It works without any problems every autumn, at about 60° north, until sea almost freezes.
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Old 10-06-2016, 19:00   #29
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Re: Heaters for Arctic waters - Recomendations ?

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Originally Posted by jdazey View Post

Some additional thoughts - high latitude voyaging will involve a lot of motoring........ Using heat from the motor coolant will extend your range. ........

Cheers,
I'd fit a 'bus heater' in a flash if I could find somewhere to put one..... they reckon the heaters out of LADA's are 'fit for intended purpose' .

In the meantime I just open my engine room hatch after anchoring and let the heat from that loverly bit of hot Swedish iron do its thing.

Top of the engine is a bonzer place to dry gloves as well.
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Old 11-06-2016, 12:28   #30
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Re: Heaters for Arctic waters - Recomendations ?

Just curious myself - would a wooden, steel or aluminum yacht be better or worse than fiberglass for insulating the heat in the boat?
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