Gunboats Full Foiling G4 Cruiser/Racer

[Stumble]

Originally Posted by Ridgeback

Who said it was 800k? last I heard they were quoting 2.3m.

To me it is more about inexperience of the crew. They should have de-powerd sooner or bear off.

The list price is supposed to be around $750,000 with reasonable extras up to about $800k.


Apparently earlier in the week there was already talk about a quicker way to dump the main. Seems they should have done it sooner rather than later.

The only damage btw was lost cell phones and two main battens. The cat was re-righted within a few minutes thanks to the photography boat. So there is reason to believe the electronics will be fine as well.

[socaldmax]

Originally Posted by Zanshin

Umm - we do know what they were doing. They were sailing in "Les Voiles de St. Barths" Regatta. They were racing in a very competitive Regatta and, as one is wont to do in races, they were trying to get the most out of the boat. Since the G4 is a racer, it will allow the crew to do things that a cruising boat will not allow; and in this case they made a mistake and the result was a capsize.
Although I'm not a catamaran fan, this discussion about the merits or seaworthiness of the boat is misplaced. If a Formula I car crashes during a race people don't discuss about bad car design but accept the fact that the driver made a mistake. The G4 might be more in the Indy 500 class, but the principle remains the same.

And the point still remains that Joe Public shouldn't be driving an Indy 500 car.

[CarlF]

Do you think the cost of insuring the G4 I have on order just went up?

[SailFastTri]

Originally Posted by colemj

BTW, bearing off in a multihull at those speeds is a very dangerous thing - and certainly won't depower it (until it is upside down). Likewise, dumping power when on foils is another really bad idea.

I'm guessing you have not sailed fast multihulls, let alone foiling ones?

Mark

I disagree with you on this Mark. Bearing off was the thing to do, the only thing that would have kept them upright at that moment, but the video shows that they rounded up, thereby increasing apparent wind, they didn't dump the main, and based on observing the rudders it appears they didn't even attempt to turn downwind until 0:47 in that "wipeout" Vimeo video -- and by that time they were already going over.

BTW I'm not a seasoned racer, nor have I sailed a foiling cat. But have been sailing performance cruising tris since 2001 and made enough mistakes to spot crew errors.

[hoppy]

Originally Posted by socaldmax

And the point still remains that Joe Public shouldn't be driving an Indy 500 car.

And Joe Public will not be buying a G4. It will be bought by rich gits who want a fun play thing and can afford a professional crew.

The G4 will be the Hobbie 16 for the super rich.

[colemj]

Originally Posted by SailFastTri

I disagree with you on this Mark. Bearing off was the thing to do, the only thing that would have kept them upright at that moment, but the video shows that they rounded up, thereby increasing apparent wind, they didn't dump the main, and based on observing the rudders it appears they didn't even attempt to turn downwind until 0:47 in that "wipeout" Vimeo video -- and by that time they were already going over.

BTW I'm not a seasoned racer, nor have I sailed a foiling cat. But have been sailing performance cruising tris since 2001 and made enough mistakes to spot crew errors.

Since neither of us are seasoned foiling racers, I guess we will have to disagree. My conversations with professional foilers is that at those speeds, heading up is generally the safer direction out of trouble - which is different than one would do with recreational performance multis. Heading down and bringing the apparent wind aft makes one go through the death zone just at the time one needs more control.

It is possible that if they could have pivoted fast enough earlier, they could have brought the boat down on its hulls and regained more control - but it is also possible they could have brought it down on the hulls and pitchpoled from the sudden drop in speed and the wind shift aft. Look at the last AC series for examples of what happens when the boat suddenly comes off foil when heading downwind. The foiling aspect makes things a bit more complicated and different - the foils are designed for horizontal lift and once those foils cant out of horizontal, they start providing lift in wrong directions.

What I see in the video is the boat bumping up and down on and off foils with each bounce making it squat in the stern. I don't see it heading up or down wind, and don't see any rudder movement. They dumped the traveller and headsail almost immediately, but the people were already hanging on to the rails before they could get the mainsheet dumped (or they did dump the mainsheet, but it fouled when they dumped the traveller).

I doubt this was crew error in the larger sense. I more suspect it was foil control or a design issue that placed it mostly out of anything a crew mistake could have caused, or a perfect crew action could have recovered. Certainly, no crew on its second outing on a new design boat could have been fully up to speed on its intricacies and idiosyncrasies. While these things could be chalked up to "crew errors", I'm willing to be a bit more forgiving - sometimes the machine envelope is just beyond the control of the human envelope.

Mark

[hoppy]

Originally Posted by colemj

I doubt this was crew error in the larger sense. I more suspect it was foil control or a design issue that placed it mostly out of anything a crew mistake could have caused, or a perfect crew action could have recovered. Certainly, no crew on its second outing on a new design boat could have been fully up to speed on its intricacies and idiosyncrasies. While these things could be chalked up to "crew errors", I'm willing to be a bit more forgiving - sometimes the machine envelope is just beyond the control of the human envelope.

They are writing the book about how to sail it, so there are no crew errors, just new lessons learnt. If it happens again in the same conditions and in the same way, then it will be crew error.

I would not be surprised if this is not the last time that this G4 and this crew capsize. As part of testing they need to push it to the limit, make mistakes and learn

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ak1n6qQS3_A

[pbr]

Originally Posted by Ridgeback

Sorry Mark I should have expanded my thought more. Seems to me a foiling cat of this size is brand new technology. With just a week with it there have to be experiences that could not have been foreseen with little to no time on the vessel. Sorry to insult the crew that was not my intention, it's all such new technology.

Your correct I am not highly experienced but there seemed to be a lack of reaction before things went south. Maybe the rotor wash from the helicopter played a roll?

Matt

Don't know about foilers, but in conventional high performance cat, heading the boat up would insure capsize as the boat would accelerate and apparent wind speed increase. Dumping main and bearing off would normally be the call.

[colemj]

Again, I have no experience with these types of boats - just relating discussions around this with a few who do race them regularly. It is definitely possible that I misunderstood or that they were talking about a narrow, specific example.

The AC races did hold several examples of what happens when a boat at speed on foils suddenly hits the water when going downwind.

Mark

[mikereed100]

I got the impression that the 'racer/cruiser' label is intended to mean that you can push this boat to it's limits while racing with experienced crew on Wednesday, then load the family on board, shorten sail and anchor out overnight on the weekend. I think that to assume GB intends this boat to be used as a liveaboard cruiser is a bit spurious. Again, just because it can be driven fast, doesn't mean that is has to be.

[CarlF]

The GUNBOAT G4 offers Formula 40 speeds in an easy to handle and forgiving weekender...

CRUISE HOME IN COMFORT & SPEED: ... With guests aboard, deploy the dual privacy curtains. Kids will love the single berths in their own private hulls. Everyone will appreciate the enclosed head with standing headroom.

DAY-SAILING WITH FRIENDS: The GUNBOAT G4 is simple and easy to sail... Friends will find their perfect space whether on the helm, on the spacious cockpit seats, or in the protected salon with unobstructed views. Ample storage space in the bows allows for easy access to all your toys. With room for kite boarding, surfing, snorkeling, and SUP gear, you’ll be able to keep everyone onboard entertained.

Entertained?

[colemj]

Originally Posted by mikereed100

I got the impression that the 'racer/cruiser' label is intended to mean that you can push this boat to it's limits while racing with experienced crew on Wednesday, then load the family on board, shorten sail and anchor out overnight on the weekend. I think that to assume GB intends this boat to be used as a liveaboard cruiser is a bit spurious. Again, just because it can be driven fast, doesn't mean that is has to be.

I don't think this boat CAN be used in that fashion. A non-foiling boat may be described as such, but I think GB is WAY off the mark attempting to market this one as such.

Imagine that loaded family going out with shortened sails getting hit by a sudden breeze coming around the corner of an island, or similar. That thing is going to require some immediate and expert control. Even if the foils are set negatively to keep the boat in the water, that is going to be quite a sudden control problem. They won't be out on a reefed Lagoon, or an Outremer, or even a Sig.

And this would be worse if mom and pop decided to just have "a little fun", while not pushing it to its limits like a race crew. And by "mom and pop", I mean the experienced owner and his family without professional crew on board - not the typical graybeard, sandal-clad potlucker.

I'm really happy to see this boat exist, and to see it further push racing into foiling territory (and to see it run laps around racing Swan 90's), but I don't think this has any type of "cruiser" in it at all - outside of a few beers in the cockpit after a race.

Gunboat has done a disservice to itself and the community marketing it as such.

Mark

[colemj]

Originally Posted by CarlF

With room for kite boarding, surfing, snorkeling, and SUP gear, you’ll be able to keep everyone onboard entertained.

Entertained?

It appears that the snorkeling gear will be very popular…

Mark

[SmartMove]

Originally Posted by CarlF

The GUNBOAT G4 offers Formula 40 speeds in an easy to handle and forgiving weekender...

CRUISE HOME IN COMFORT & SPEED: ... With guests aboard, deploy the dual privacy curtains. Kids will love the single berths in their own private hulls. Everyone will appreciate the enclosed head with standing headroom.

DAY-SAILING WITH FRIENDS: The GUNBOAT G4 is simple and easy to sail... Friends will find their perfect space whether on the helm, on the spacious cockpit seats, or in the protected salon with unobstructed views. Ample storage space in the bows allows for easy access to all your toys. With room for kite boarding, surfing, snorkeling, and SUP gear, you’ll be able to keep everyone onboard entertained.

Entertained?

Well they are definitely keeping everyone NOT onboard entertained, lol! The few Gunboats I have seen here in the Caribbean have certainly been head turners, the G4 is a little more excitement than I want in my cruising life. That being said, I don't have the $$$$$ for one anyway, but you could certainly zip around the islands in that thing!


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[socaldmax]

Originally Posted by hoppy

And Joe Public will not be buying a G4. It will be bought by rich gits who want a fun play thing and can afford a professional crew.

The G4 will be the Hobbie 16 for the super rich.

That's definitely NOT how they're marketing it. They're marketing it as a part time racer - weekend family cruiser.