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Old 19-04-2015, 13:33   #61
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Re: Gunboats Full Foiling G4 Cruiser/Racer

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My problem as a fellow professional in the industry, is the hype in the marketing, this is no more a cruising boat than an F1 is a daily driver. It needs more than subtle rake adjustments, probably a sensor like the moths to automatically adjust the wing in seas. Even with that based on elapsed times it was not that fast in "regular catamaran" mode when off the foils. There is pushing the envelope and then there is delusion. This concept will never be plausible as a family cruiser and particularly at a price pushing 800k. When I first saw the concept and then finished design, I predicted in private that this would happen. If you look at the details this past week it took a lot of work by a crew of professionals perched on the aft windward quarter to sail this and keep it foiling in variable conditions. I would say GB was very lucky no one was seriously hurt.

So many definitions of a cruising boat. I just saw a Seawind 24 with a boom tent up, not a suitable cruiser to me but I'm not going to tell the guy his boat isn't a cruiser because I don't know what his definition of cruiser is. From what I understand the builder of the G4, Peter Johnstone was on board when the boat flipped, I wonder what his thoughts are now.
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Old 19-04-2015, 14:09   #62
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Re: Gunboats Full Foiling G4 Cruiser/Racer

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My problem as a fellow professional in the industry, is the hype in the marketing, this is no more a cruising boat than an F1 is a daily driver. It needs more than subtle rake adjustments, probably a sensor like the moths to automatically adjust the wing in seas. Even with that based on elapsed times it was not that fast in "regular catamaran" mode when off the foils. There is pushing the envelope and then there is delusion. This concept will never be plausible as a family cruiser and particularly at a price pushing 800k. When I first saw the concept and then finished design, I predicted in private that this would happen. If you look at the details this past week it took a lot of work by a crew of professionals perched on the aft windward quarter to sail this and keep it foiling in variable conditions. I would say GB was very lucky no one was seriously hurt.
I am not going to say you are wrong about this as a traditional cruiser. It just isn't one given its lack of usable load carrying. But that is a decision for the buyer to decide.

The issue with the foils... How many generations of foils did the moth go thru before settling mostly on what they are using now. The A call cats have been thru something like 15 different foil designs in the last 12 months. With new ones in design before the current generation foils are even out of the autoclave. Gunboat is just starting this process so they built a test platform that allows substantially more freedom of movement than anyone expects in a production boat.

This was done solely for the need to allow for adjustments as they test the platform. So until they even know what reasonable settings are for the foils it is presumptuous to make any great inferences about the finished product. If they were sailing with the board tweaked to max lift to get the boat out of the water in light air, at the cost of substantial stability (very likely) then simply putting the boards in a more aggressive attitude fixes the problem. Particularly if the final production boat doesn't even allow for this degree of freedom.

At this point it is complete speculation. We don't even have a clue why the boat flipped. And at this point no one outside the small group of people on the boat do. In time I am sure they will have to address it or people will walk away from the boats as unsafe as they should.

In the same vein it took 15 prototypes of the F-15 to get it right. Would you argue it should have been scrapped when the first one was a bit of a mess? Knowing now that it has been one of the most successful aircraft every produced.

When you take a complicated system thru a developmental barrier it is expected there will be teething problems. This is no different. Except that in the marine world there is a weird expectation that the first one out of the box should be perfect and if not then the whole idea is a disaster.
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Old 19-04-2015, 14:42   #63
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Re: Gunboats Full Foiling G4 Cruiser/Racer

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I am not going to say you are wrong about this as a traditional cruiser. It just isn't one given its lack of usable load carrying. But that is a decision for the buyer to decide.

The issue with the foils... How many generations of foils did the moth go thru before settling mostly on what they are using now. The A call cats have been thru something like 15 different foil designs in the last 12 months. With new ones in design before the current generation foils are even out of the autoclave. Gunboat is just starting this process so they built a test platform that allows substantially more freedom of movement than anyone expects in a production boat.

This was done solely for the need to allow for adjustments as they test the platform. So until they even know what reasonable settings are for the foils it is presumptuous to make any great inferences about the finished product. If they were sailing with the board tweaked to max lift to get the boat out of the water in light air, at the cost of substantial stability (very likely) then simply putting the boards in a more aggressive attitude fixes the problem. Particularly if the final production boat doesn't even allow for this degree of freedom.

At this point it is complete speculation. We don't even have a clue why the boat flipped. And at this point no one outside the small group of people on the boat do. In time I am sure they will have to address it or people will walk away from the boats as unsafe as they should.

In the same vein it took 15 prototypes of the F-15 to get it right. Would you argue it should have been scrapped when the first one was a bit of a mess? Knowing now that it has been one of the most successful aircraft every produced.

When you take a complicated system thru a developmental barrier it is expected there will be teething problems. This is no different. Except that in the marine world there is a weird expectation that the first one out of the box should be perfect and if not then the whole idea is a disaster.
I actually applaud Gunboat pushing the envelope and seeing how far it can be pushed from a technical point of view. Don't you think it was premature for them to be soliciting orders and selling this as a viable coastal cruiser in their current marketing program? I think so. I didn't expect perfection with their prototype and if they were honest about this concept being experimental and more about promotion for the company I would not have a problem with it. But to imply foiling is ready for prime time in the cruising world at this time is way premature. I believe on a more stable platform like a trimaran foil assisted sailing may have some market potential in the future though.
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Old 19-04-2015, 15:12   #64
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Re: Gunboats Full Foiling G4 Cruiser/Racer

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Hum.. sunny day, seas 2 feet or less judging by the photo, pro crew and the boat capsized anyway.

It's a cool boat, but I suspect it's not ready for the typical cruiser, or more likely the typical cruiser is not ready for it. Luckily everyone is safe and the boat is intact, which does show a high build quality.

Cruising and racing are completely different. Racers sail "on the edge", cruisers stay well away from it.

I don't think it's a cruising boat either, but cruisers wouldn't have capsized it in mild conditions.

People on this forum don't seem to grasp this - maybe because on a mono you do pretty much sail as fast as you can most of the time - but on a cat you don't.

I was talking to a guy who'd won the Brisbane-Gladstone race on a Shawn Arbor cat - he was describing sailing downwind in 30-35 knots of wind under full main and spinnaker. Doing around 20 knots, with some surfs over 25. And occasionally burying the bows and nearly pitchpoling

A cruising crew would have NO spinnaker, NO main, just maybe 1/2 a headsail, and be comfortable and safe at around 10 knots.

It's a completely different mindset.


In this case, it wasn't the boat that capsized - it was the crew who capsized the boat.
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Old 19-04-2015, 15:38   #65
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Re: Gunboats Full Foiling G4 Cruiser/Racer

Agreed, however I don't see the value in spending 800k on a 40ft. boat that you cant sail to its potential without professional help.
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Old 19-04-2015, 15:41   #66
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Re: Gunboats Full Foiling G4 Cruiser/Racer

Sure, but how many people can drive a Veyron to it's full potential?
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Old 19-04-2015, 15:41   #67
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Re: Gunboats Full Foiling G4 Cruiser/Racer

Kind to drive the new Kawasaki H2R at 50 mph all the time. No sense.
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Old 19-04-2015, 16:13   #68
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Re: Gunboats Full Foiling G4 Cruiser/Racer

Who said it was 800k? last I heard they were quoting 2.3m.

To me it is more about inexperience of the crew. They should have de-powerd sooner or bear off.
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Old 19-04-2015, 16:17   #69
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Re: Gunboats Full Foiling G4 Cruiser/Racer

Maybe the G4 is more like the Tomahawk... hmm is that Peter Johnstone, where are his cup holders? This engine will overheat after a few miles,
so a total unpractical vehicle.



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Old 19-04-2015, 16:49   #70
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Re: Gunboats Full Foiling G4 Cruiser/Racer

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Originally Posted by Ridgeback View Post
To me it is more about inexperience of the crew. They should have de-powerd sooner or bear off.
I don't know how much more experience the crew could have been - they were professional racers. The helmsman, Mischa Heemskerk is an A-cat world champion, so he knows a thing or two about sailing a foiling catamaran. These weren't mom and pop cruisers having a go at it.

BTW, bearing off in a multihull at those speeds is a very dangerous thing - and certainly won't depower it (until it is upside down). Likewise, dumping power when on foils is another really bad idea.

I'm guessing you have not sailed fast multihulls, let alone foiling ones?

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Old 19-04-2015, 17:02   #71
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Gunboats Full Foiling G4 Cruiser/Racer

Video of G4-01 capsizing and inverting. No injuries, but that's an expensive crash. Factory crew.


http://vimeo.com/125378004

Okay, correct Vimeo links don't seem to work here :-(

Go to Vimeo.com and paste 125378004 after the / on the address bar.

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Old 19-04-2015, 17:02   #72
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Re: Gunboats Full Foiling G4 Cruiser/Racer

First of all I am relieved that all are safe.
I do not have access to all the pics but from what I've seen regarding the righting of the G4 despite the main being very twisted off the boom and traveler are still midship......could this be the smoking gun?
Also if I were PJ at this point I would sit down with the boys at the NYYC and offer them 5 boats at a greatly reduced price to replace the Swan 42's as their One Design Class. Then we could see some great OD racing and it may just salvage a tremendous effort by Gunboat.
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Old 19-04-2015, 17:08   #73
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Re: Gunboats Full Foiling G4 Cruiser/Racer

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I don't know how much more experience the crew could have been - they were professional racers. The helmsman, Mischa Heemskerk is an A-cat world champion, so he knows a thing or two about sailing a foiling catamaran. These weren't mom and pop cruisers having a go at it.

BTW, bearing off in a multihull at those speeds is a very dangerous thing - and certainly won't depower it (until it is upside down). Likewise, dumping power when on foils is another really bad idea.

I'm guessing you have not sailed fast multihulls, let alone foiling ones?

Mark

Sorry Mark I should have expanded my thought more. Seems to me a foiling cat of this size is brand new technology. With just a week with it there have to be experiences that could not have been foreseen with little to no time on the vessel. Sorry to insult the crew that was not my intention, it's all such new technology.

Your correct I am not highly experienced but there seemed to be a lack of reaction before things went south. Maybe the rotor wash from the helicopter played a roll?

Matt
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Old 19-04-2015, 17:54   #74
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Re: Gunboats Full Foiling G4 Cruiser/Racer

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Who said it was 800k? last I heard they were quoting 2.3m.

To me it is more about inexperience of the crew. They should have de-powerd sooner or bear off.

I've been dumped in the exact same manner on my beachcat. When winds are light and you've got that much sail up it sometimes isn't possible to de power let alone bear off. I've several times been hit by a puff when I did t have quite enough flow over the rudders to turn down with enough authority to get under the spinnaker. The result is strikingly similar to what we saw happen here.


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Old 19-04-2015, 20:00   #75
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Re: Gunboats Full Foiling G4 Cruiser/Racer

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Umm - we do know what they were doing. They were sailing in "Les Voiles de St. Barths" Regatta. They were racing in a very competitive Regatta and, as one is wont to do in races, they were trying to get the most out of the boat. Since the G4 is a racer, it will allow the crew to do things that a cruising boat will not allow; and in this case they made a mistake and the result was a capsize.
Although I'm not a catamaran fan, this discussion about the merits or seaworthiness of the boat is misplaced. If a Formula I car crashes during a race people don't discuss about bad car design but accept the fact that the driver made a mistake. The G4 might be more in the Indy 500 class, but the principle remains the same.
This thread didn't contain that information until your post. So, you might have known but I didn't.

I'm not one of the many 'experts' on here making statements about it being a cruiser or not or making other judgments. I only said that there wasn't enough information about the capsize to know exactly what happened and why. And there wasn't.

Anyway, back to normal service...
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