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Old 20-11-2015, 15:58   #91
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Re: Gunboat International sues Chinese boatyard

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you are taking an exceptionally long bow suggesting Outremer may have copied IP from Gunboat.
Just irony. It was a rethorical question as Peter's accussations in my understanding are purely nonsense.
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Old 26-04-2018, 13:32   #92
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Re: Gunboat International sues Chinese boatyard

If one would gift it to me... I would not be worried too heavily about that it was produced in China, or maybe its a kind of "gunboat copy". :-)

Actually, the reason why Gunboat went broke is because Peter fixed all of the hulls built in China at Gunboat expense.

One need not worry about the integrity of any Ginboat hulls.
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Old 26-04-2018, 14:39   #93
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Re: Gunboat International sues Chinese boatyard

That’s a nice idea. A Ginboat. Where can I find one?
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Old 26-04-2018, 15:15   #94
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Re: Gunboat International sues Chinese boatyard

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Thatís a nice idea. A Ginboat. Where can I find one?
Oops. Busted
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Old 27-04-2018, 06:54   #95
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Re: Gunboat International sues Chinese boatyard

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Thatís a nice idea. A Ginboat. Where can I find one?
Hendricks Gin tent - it floats at least - boat show">Annapolis Boat Show.
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Old 27-04-2018, 09:51   #96
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Re: Alternatives to GB... concurrence makes business lively...

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Why is the Gunboat owner not pledging some compensation against Outremer ?

They build the 18 meter Catamaran "NOLIMIT" based on the design by VPLP. Even Trimaran sailor Loick Peyron likes it (as it is a 100% French project), see attachment.

From distance it looks very similarly compared with the Gunboat, isnt ? Shall be accused Outremeer / VPLP having stolen the design from GP and hurting IP ? Or vice-versa, maybe :-)


All nonsense this yealing about "bad quality" and stealing IP.... designers (and boat builders) always get inspirations from each others. Its the only way to progress "common standards" further on. Look at cars and how similarly nowadays the designers follow "modern trends". Sometimes it needs the logo on the front to recognize the brand.

Similarly goes for boat building since hundreds of years...

Just being published the photos on Facebook by "NoLimit Marine" to slip the boat into the water, see attachments. I think it was the christening in spring 2015 (Source: https://www.facebook.com/NoLimitMarine?fref=photo )

You can get this Catamaran in charter, too.... (Rec.: I am not owner/co-owner/member of Outremer... no own profit interests)
Charter Yacht Brochure NO LIMIT - Outremer Yachting/No Limit 60 ft / 18.3 m
or here: NO LIMIT Boat for charter





Imagine, Outremer would produce a leight weighted "carbon racing version" of the NoLimit with foils to fly fully.

I think, we then wont talk anymore a lot about Gunboats, right ?

It would be great to see a foiling NOLIMIT version so we have a kind of competitor to the G4 Gunboat. By experience and looking back into history monopolists never had been something good in markets, mostly damaging the buyers (e.g. being overprized).

Here a test sail video published by NKE which equipped the Cat NOLIMIT with electronics... I like this boat. While racing you can have barbeque grilling on the astern deck...


It gets me on my nerves that GB owner went public with his own business problems. Hot air... Meanwhile till GB has cleared the case front court - as we do here - potential buyers will look for alternatives, e.g. for a Sunreef 80, an Outremer NoLimit or Outremer 5X.
All that money, and someone still has to stand out in the open sun and wind to pilot it.
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Old 27-04-2018, 19:39   #97
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Re: Alternatives to GB... concurrence makes business lively...

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All that money, and someone still has to stand out in the open sun and wind to pilot it.

HAS to??!??!!? I would say WANTS to stand out there and play. If it becomes work then you turn on the autopilot and lie down in the shade with a cool drink and a remote control. Whatís your point other than being snarky?
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Old 27-04-2018, 22:20   #98
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Re: Gunboat International sues Chinese boatyard

Ummm, how about when AP snuffs it?


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Old 28-04-2018, 00:20   #99
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Re: Gunboat International sues Chinese boatyard

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Ummm, how about when AP snuffs it?


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Iím guessing you mean the AP causes the boat to dig a bow or somehow else messes things up? That doesnít happen very much with modern APs - how often have you heard or experienced yourself that the AP does a better job steering then you do?

Of course, if youíre sailing on the edge or in very big waves a competent human will do better, for a while (humans get tired). But as the solo sailors have shown, generally itís no problem to let the AP steer.

Whatís your point?
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Old 28-04-2018, 02:59   #100
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Re: Gunboat International sues Chinese boatyard

No, I meant the autopilot stops working, or begins steering erratically.

Or, even more likely scenario is that in really challenging conditions & sea state, the AP just does not steer well enough. You may need to steer around the breakers if fore-reaching.

And yes, I have experienced exactly that in the Tasman Sea, and we had to hand steer for 2 1/2 days in atrocious conditions because the AP could not cope and was downright dangerous.

Let me assure you, you would not want to be perched out there steering in those or even remotely similar conditions. And in the middle of the night with breaking seas rolling by, it would be a lonely & soul searching experience.

But for tootling along getting a sun tan in coastal sailing where you can easily duck into port, if there is equipment failure, sure. Lots of fun in good conditions.
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Old 28-04-2018, 04:25   #101
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Re: Gunboat International sues Chinese boatyard

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No, I meant the autopilot stops working, or begins steering erratically.



Or, even more likely scenario is that in really challenging conditions & sea state, the AP just does not steer well enough. You may need to steer around the breakers if fore-reaching.



And yes, I have experienced exactly that in the Tasman Sea, and we had to hand steer for 2 1/2 days in atrocious conditions because the AP could not cope and was downright dangerous.



Let me assure you, you would not want to be perched out there steering in those or even remotely similar conditions. And in the middle of the night with breaking seas rolling by, it would be a lonely & soul searching experience.



But for tootling along getting a sun tan in coastal sailing where you can easily duck into port, if there is equipment failure, sure. Lots of fun in good conditions.

I donít agree with your lonely and soul searching experience of steering at a helm station on the quarter of the boat as with Gunboats and Nautitechs and Catanas. Catamarans are much steadier in big seas, especially reaching, so sitting out there helming is not that big a deal at all. And modern APs properly sized can generally steer just fine in pretty hairy conditions as long as the boat isnít over powered and is relatively balanced.

But if youíre in conditions where you actually have to steer around breaking waves a helm station needs to have good visibility, again it doesnít really matter if itís on the quarter or behind or above the cabin - itís going to be work and youíre concentrating enough that you donít notice conditions. Changing over frequently enough so that no one person gets worn out is most important.

Your nice protected helm station with full clears wonít help as in those conditions you will have removed the clears to prevent them from being ripped to shreds.
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Old 28-04-2018, 06:26   #102
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Re: Gunboat International sues Chinese boatyard

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I donít agree with your lonely and soul searching experience of steering at a helm station on the quarter of the boat as with Gunboats and Nautitechs and Catanas. Catamarans are much steadier in big seas, especially reaching, so sitting out there helming is not that big a deal at all. And modern APs properly sized can generally steer just fine in pretty hairy conditions as long as the boat isnít over powered and is relatively balanced.

But if youíre in conditions where you actually have to steer around breaking waves a helm station needs to have good visibility, again it doesnít really matter if itís on the quarter or behind or above the cabin - itís going to be work and youíre concentrating enough that you donít notice conditions. Changing over frequently enough so that no one person gets worn out is most important.

Your nice protected helm station with full clears wonít help as in those conditions you will have removed the clears to prevent them from being ripped to shreds.
With respect, you sound like someone who is offering opinions on what it would be like in "big seas", without having experienced it.

You're going to be reaching in "big seas"? Really? I'm talking fully developed seas, 6 to 8 meters breaking, not just the odd white top wave. Have you been on deck on a cruising cat with breaking wave that you're looking up at a 45 degree angle at the top about to smack you and wash over the boat? And you think it's no problem to be on the quarter deck? Okaaay.....

Trust me on this if nothing else, you will be "noticing" the conditions very acutely. You'd better be clipped on nice and tight, my friend.

And modern AP's fail perhaps less than they used to 10 years ago maybe so, but they fail. To not be prepared for such an eventuality is just plain bad seamanship.

And clears protecting the helm position? On a bluewater cruiser? Are you mad?

Anyway, hopefully you won't have to find out the reality of what really bad conditions actually feel like. I mean that sincerely.
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Old 28-04-2018, 10:23   #103
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Re: Gunboat International sues Chinese boatyard

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Originally Posted by BigBeakie View Post

Or, even more likely scenario is that in really challenging conditions & sea state, the AP just does not steer well enough. You may need to steer around the breakers if fore-reaching.

And yes, I have experienced exactly that in the Tasman Sea, and we had to hand steer for 2 1/2 days in atrocious conditions because the AP could not cope and was downright dangerous.
These helm stations are not my favourite, but also not that critical.

Regarind the problems with your autopilot not handling bad conditions maybe it wasn't tuned well enough. Like reacting too slow, too little, too late. Well tuned it should be able to hold the boat on a stable course no matter what.
This is true especially for newer APs with multi axis sensors giving not only plain heading, but full 3 dimensional directions and acceleration data almost in realtime. Older APs with a slow fluxgate compass are much less precise as they just see a heading deviation after it happened, and even that just once per second.

Of course no AP can steer around breakers as it can't see them, but the same is true for myself over 50% of the time (its dark at night, or there is foam & spray in the air).


Of course any AP can pack in. I had my AP die in the middle of the atlantic, while in good conditions. My wife handsteered for hours while I searched for the problem (and took care of two small kids). It turned out that one electronic component had de-soldered itself ue to excessive heat. Re-soldering it on a moving boat was no fun!
On my next long passage I'd bring a small tiller AP to jury rig. That backup would of course not be able to handle severe conditions, but it's good enough for normal good weather so humans just have to take care of the challenging conditions.
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Old 28-04-2018, 14:34   #104
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Re: Gunboat International sues Chinese boatyard

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With respect, you sound like someone who is offering opinions on what it would be like in "big seas", without having experienced it.



You're going to be reaching in "big seas"? Really? I'm talking fully developed seas, 6 to 8 meters breaking, not just the odd white top wave. Have you been on deck on a cruising cat with breaking wave that you're looking up at a 45 degree angle at the top about to smack you and wash over the boat? And you think it's no problem to be on the quarter deck? Okaaay.....



Trust me on this if nothing else, you will be "noticing" the conditions very acutely. You'd better be clipped on nice and tight, my friend.



And modern AP's fail perhaps less than they used to 10 years ago maybe so, but they fail. To not be prepared for such an eventuality is just plain bad seamanship.



And clears protecting the helm position? On a bluewater cruiser? Are you mad?



Anyway, hopefully you won't have to find out the reality of what really bad conditions actually feel like. I mean that sincerely.

Thanks for the condescending words.

Relax, Iím not going to whip my big ĎI was in storm Xí dick out, but be assured Iíve experienced storm conditions on a variety of boats. It generally sucks to be there and you do whatever you need to do.

But your initial complaint about quarterdeck helm stations did not make it clear that when you meant big seas you meant more than gale conditions.

A helm station on a quarter will be more exposed, but once occasional waves break over the boat any helm station is exposed, unless youíre inside like on an Atlantic. While still safe to sail you clip in and have fun. When too wet and not so fun you let the AP drive - it will be fine.

But if conditions build to the point that youíre surviving and not sailing then human safety implies using the AP. As someone else pointed out you canít see those sees at night so youíre not actively steering better than an AP anyway. Set a drogue and get below.

Before that point, a helm station with lots of visibility is a good thing. Cat Impi swears by his flybridge L440 even in rough conditions. I havenít heard anyone with a quarterdeck helm saying they think itís unsafe.

If your AP packs it in your primary problem is not the location of the helm station it is the inoperable AP.

Just take a look at vlogs to see plenty of clears in place around helm stations, even left in place in some pretty strong conditions. Presumably those boats eventually remove them, but there isnít much cruising footage of storms due to most vlogs sticking to the trades and avoiding storms.
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Old 28-04-2018, 22:22   #105
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Re: Gunboat International sues Chinese boatyard

Did not mean to sound condescending, OK? But when you made statements like not noticing the conditions because you'll be focusing so intently, it did strike me as a bit naive.

But, Ok you've been in storms, so all's good. If you're sailing NZ waters on your O55, I certainly assume you've been in a blow or two.

But, I will point out that it is not true that all helms are exposed if breaking water pours down the boat. There are designs that have fully protected helm positions on the cockpit-saloon bulkhead such as Antares, Freeflow, etc. that keep both the seas at bay at the helm, as well as rain, wind and skin cancer.

For me, and I stress I don't expect anybody else to want the same thing I do, but given my unpleasant experience, for me a fully protected helm position is taking into account the realities of low probability-high impact events as part of good seamanship principles.

That was, and remains, my only point.
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