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Old 04-10-2015, 06:58   #76
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Alternatives to GB... concurrence makes business lively...

Why is the Gunboat owner not pledging some compensation against Outremer ?

They build the 18 meter Catamaran "NOLIMIT" based on the design by VPLP. Even Trimaran sailor Loick Peyron likes it (as it is a 100% French project), see attachment.

From distance it looks very similarly compared with the Gunboat, isnt ? Shall be accused Outremeer / VPLP having stolen the design from GP and hurting IP ? Or vice-versa, maybe :-)


All nonsense this yealing about "bad quality" and stealing IP.... designers (and boat builders) always get inspirations from each others. Its the only way to progress "common standards" further on. Look at cars and how similarly nowadays the designers follow "modern trends". Sometimes it needs the logo on the front to recognize the brand.

Similarly goes for boat building since hundreds of years...

Just being published the photos on Facebook by "NoLimit Marine" to slip the boat into the water, see attachments. I think it was the christening in spring 2015 (Source: https://www.facebook.com/NoLimitMarine?fref=photo )

You can get this Catamaran in charter, too.... (Rec.: I am not owner/co-owner/member of Outremer... no own profit interests)
Charter Yacht Brochure NO LIMIT - Outremer Yachting/No Limit 60 ft / 18.3 m
or here: NO LIMIT Boat for charter





Imagine, Outremer would produce a leight weighted "carbon racing version" of the NoLimit with foils to fly fully.

I think, we then wont talk anymore a lot about Gunboats, right ?

It would be great to see a foiling NOLIMIT version so we have a kind of competitor to the G4 Gunboat. By experience and looking back into history monopolists never had been something good in markets, mostly damaging the buyers (e.g. being overprized).

Here a test sail video published by NKE which equipped the Cat NOLIMIT with electronics... I like this boat. While racing you can have barbeque grilling on the astern deck...


It gets me on my nerves that GB owner went public with his own business problems. Hot air... Meanwhile till GB has cleared the case front court - as we do here - potential buyers will look for alternatives, e.g. for a Sunreef 80, an Outremer NoLimit or Outremer 5X.
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Old 04-10-2015, 08:18   #77
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Re: Gunboat International sues Chinese boatyard

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Originally Posted by impi View Post
I may be way out here guys ... but ... I have heard rumours that GB will be back in SA building - if not already ... 'hear say' ... lets see!
Won't happen. Although SA right now is probably the most economical building location (cheaper than China, better located) with the weakness in the rand (and most SA builders currently have very healthy order books) . GB will know all this, but SA is closed to them after they burnt their bridges there, which I'm sure they regret now. There are builders, suppliers, landlords and ex employees who will be all over them if they set foot back in CT.
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Old 04-10-2015, 21:04   #78
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Re: Gunboat International sues Chinese boatyard

Quote "
Why is the Gunboat owner not pledging some compensation against Outremer ?

They build the 18 meter Catamaran "NOLIMIT" based on the design by VPLP. Even Trimaran sailor Loick Peyron likes it (as it is a 100% French project), see attachment.

From distance it looks very similarly compared with the Gunboat, isnt ? Shall be accused Outremeer / VPLP having stolen the design from GP and hurting IP ? Or vice-versa, maybe :-)"

Jay,

you are taking an exceptionally long bow suggesting Outremer may have copied IP from Gunboat.

There is a lot of similarity currently between many of the top cat designers fast cruising cats.

The dispute between Gunboat and Hudson Will likely not be successful using ligitation.
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Old 05-10-2015, 08:38   #79
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Re: Gunboat International sues Chinese boatyard

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you are taking an exceptionally long bow suggesting Outremer may have copied IP from Gunboat.
No, no... my god. I dont accuse Outremer... haha.

I just want say: we see trends... logically. Designers and naval architects are not stupid folks... some of them even work more scientifically, e.g. using "wind tunnels".

So over time, using similarly "computer similation software" and mathematical parameters for their calculations, its a steadily learning processs, from generation to generation.

So logically we must see over period of times, maybe in the rhythm of one decade new designs which are close to each other and we can count of "same period".

I remember very well the heavily influence of the America's Cup boats end of the 80th/beginning 90th. That time these racers used "keel bombs" and "wing keels".

Shortly after we have seen these keel types in series... a parallel process we see in Formula 1 (F1 racing cars). The new technologies we see later in series cars, e.g. the "wiping gear" on the steering wheel.

Quote:
Originally Posted by downunder View Post
There is a lot of similarity currently between many of the top cat designers fast cruising cats.
yep... so it is... a very normal process between humans. And the Internet pushes this process more quickly... as soon a naval architect presents his 3D model / animation on Youtube video others can learn from quickly. The learning curve is climbing more rapidly.

Quote:
Originally Posted by downunder View Post
The dispute between Gunboat and Hudson Will likely not be successful using ligitation.
hm... now my "bad English" let me be alone. I am not a native ENG speaker. What do you mean ?
http://www.hg.org/litigation-law.html

Aha.... got it. Yes. legal procedures differ from country to country... complicated world (and very often a very irrationally one) if two parties struggle front court.


I have to deal by profession since more than 30 years with lawyers... these guys (I mean attorneys and court judges) live in their own world, and speak their own language. - "Non lawyers" are totally lost and 100% in their hands.

Its a terrible world full of "dirty methods"... a good lawyer is one who can balance on the edge of perversion of justice. Nobody really knows how it goes as it is all "a form of interpretation". - Or as we like to say: Front court and on high seas we are in God's hands. (or as the "old wise Romans" said: Coram iudice et in alto mari sumus in manu Dei.)

Lets see !!! Best we keep focussing on boating itself... and simplyfy our complicated lifes. :-)



Happy Sailing ! :-)
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Old 05-10-2015, 08:40   #80
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Re: Gunboat International sues Chinese boatyard

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People do what you inspect, not what you expect.
Well said.

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Old 05-10-2015, 08:46   #81
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Re: Gunboat International sues Chinese boatyard

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Originally Posted by SVrider44224 View Post
I have inspected and audited a handful of Chinese manufacturers.
With 1 exception, any company that does business over there deserves the proper hosing they are going to get.
I don't believe there is an accurate translation for the word Integrity in Mandarin.
I think the Chinese understand Western companies obsession with shareholder profits above all else.

A study into Defence industries some years ago revealed MOST, China's ministry of science and technology was involved in all government decisions. Only Israel had a similar focus on STEM.

China has put an astronaut in space so they are clearly competent. When they want to be.

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Old 05-10-2015, 09:06   #82
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Re: Gunboat International sues Chinese boatyard

Gunboat seem to be their own worst enemy.

Marketing driven organization with no long term strategy. Chasing low labor costs. Masts fall off, hulls flip, boats abandoned...

It's all empirical information but I don't feel like I'd want to deal with them as a customer, partner or supplier.

Any chance they're run by former wall streeters?

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Old 18-11-2015, 15:46   #83
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Re: Gunboat International sues Chinese boatyard

Gunboat declared Chapter 11 bankruptcy today. See Peter Johnson's statement on Sailing Anarchy. Problems with the G4 foiling cat, the GB55 (rainmaker), and the Chinese fiasco combined.
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Old 18-11-2015, 17:16   #84
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Re: Gunboat International sues Chinese boatyard

I would say, good news for SIG45 and all the other speedy Cats, eg. Outrember 45... reading the news today about the bankrupcy of Gunboat:

Quote:
In a period of non-stop accolades and introduction of several terrific new models, Gunboat has been quietly struggling behind the scenes for nearly two years. It has been a perfect storm of adverse business circumstances, mistakes, and disputes. A brief summary from my viewpoint/opinion:

• The Chinese built Gunboat 60 series cost Gunboat a fortune to sort out. The Chinese builder has fought its contractual obligations to manage, support, pay and reimburse for the completion, rework and warranty costs. Gunboat felt an obligation to its customers and spent millions out of pocket, which proved to be a huge strain on our resources, focus and productivity.

• The G4 capsize in April, and the recent photo boat collision on a magazine boat test in Annapolis have thwarted sales of this series to date. The investment was made. The return is in the future.

• The abandonment of RAINMAKER by her owner and crew certainly was not helpful to a new series. The Gunboat 55 is a great boat, and it will take time for that word to get out.

• The ramp up of production in North Carolina took longer and cost more.

I am sure our situation will be dissected. As sole owner of the company, these issues are all mine…..I could have overcome maybe 1-2 of these challenges, but certainly not all of these in one short period of time. Today, Gunboat will file for Chapter 11 protection under the Federal Bankruptcy Code.

With the challenges above, there are also positive notes moving forward. The operations have shown a nice turn-around in the past few months. Boats are being built, and we are meeting our plan for operating the business and recovering through the Chapter 11 process.

Business has ups and downs. Success and failure. I have enjoyed 30 years of both results. While the past two years been the most stressful and difficult period of my life and business career, this period has also been one of enormous assessment and growth personally and professionally. I have learned far more from the failures than the accolades. We have a lot of good people, and we will see our way out of this period in the next two years.

To everyone who has been so supportive, I am forever grateful. To anyone adversely affected by Gunboat’s situation, I am deeply sorry.

(Source: Scuttlebut News on 18th November 2015 - Gunboat Files for Bankruptcy >> Scuttlebutt Sailing News )

I see it following: It is the logically consequence. The boat doesnt have the substance... a big marketing gimmick.

Let us remember: Already in 2004 an Outremer 45 Cat sailed with 22-23 knots (see vid: http://bit.ly/1Yh5YcY ).


Give such "an old boat" some foils, high tech sails on a modern profiled rotation wing mast and T-rudder... and you see the same in the range of 30 knots what we have seen with some spectacularly images with drones of the Orange G4. Nothing new, nothing special. Big show making...

One (as owner/founder/enterpreneur) should know the market and understand customers... and not just selling 100% Carbon at an insane prize in the range of 3-3.5 million US dollars / boat (produced cheaply in China).

The list with critics could go on, e.g. looking at another concurrence. Let's take the SIG45 High Performance Cat going 20 knots easily (without foils) in 18 knots wind. Already sailed in 2008 in the range of up to 25-26 knots ( see vid: http://bit.ly/1WZCwuV ).


Later in 2012 the SIG45 was sailing in Frisco Bay the Big Boat Series... but still missing some cool Drone footages as we have seen with G4.


A Le Breton Yachts SIG60 (with foils) by sure would be same competitive as the Gunboat.

In other words: there is competitively concurrence... but all the hype around the G4 over last months pretended that this US boat would be something very special and new. So is not the reality.

Saillors with experiences having enough money and knowledge of the market (observing it over last 20-30 years) know all this and cant be made blind by some cool images.

If I'd be interested in cat racing I'd take a SIG45, call the guys of HP (Holland Composite) who built the foils for the Gunboat and order a set of powerfully daggerboard foils + foiling rudders and pace around like mad around the globe presenting cool video clips on youtube. Nobody then would be impressed anymore by this Orange G4 thing. A SIG45 is in the prize range of 1.1 million US dollars, plus a foil/T-Rudder kit... then we have 50"% of the costs for a Gunboat, if Holland composites wanted 3-400,000 alone for the foil set. - So why a G4 ? (Rec.: Probably its less costly, as Hugo Le Breton the founder himself talked in the Cruiser's Forum in 2009 about a prize for the boat without sails in the size of 700,000 Euros with fully interior, exclusively sails and electronics.)

Its always risky to misunderstand "PR" effects (and "hot air") with the substance of the product. Happened very often (and still will happen in the future) top managers became blind because of the big applause they received. Its good for their own ego, but has nothing to do with the "customer's need".
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Old 19-11-2015, 03:24   #85
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Re: Gunboat International sues Chinese boatyard

i will pray for gunboat to make money from outsourcing. Such a noble concept giving needy work and feeling of being needed. Bank I work at also struggles to show benefits of outsourcing. I fell for them also.

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Old 19-11-2015, 07:18   #86
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Re: Gunboat International sues Chinese boatyard

Netherland company goes onto distance clearly to Gunboat USA !! - Holland Composites published this declaration this morning:

Quote:
As builder and designer of the G4, Holland Composites / DNA wants to state that we are sorry about the latest developments at GB, and also feel sorry for all people involved. Concerning the G4 project: this is not affected by the situation as Holland Composites is a independent company running the design and build for the G4.

Holland Composites continues developing, building, marketing and to sell the G4.


The second boat is hitting the water March 2016, carbon casco is allready finished. Lots of improvements will be intergrated, based on the experience while racing and (off shore) cruising the boat in the past months.


With more hydraulics on board It will be safer, faster and easier to foil.The first computer assisted foiling boat available perhaps.....!
We will keep you updated, Lots of stunning new stuff for the G4 will be shown by us soon. Stay tuned.
(Source: HC's Facebook page... https://www.facebook.com/hollandcomp...09500039104142 )
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Old 19-11-2015, 19:09   #87
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Re: Gunboat International sues Chinese boatyard

Luxury catamaran company files for bankruptcy - YBW

Here is a similar cat out of the mould

http://www.harveyachts.com
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Old 19-11-2015, 22:38   #88
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Re: Gunboat International sues Chinese boatyard

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Originally Posted by impi View Post
Here is a similar cat out of the mould
Harvey Yachts
Have you noticed this ?

Quote:
Harvey Yachts in Knysna may be a new enterprise but the core of this business are Phil and Laura Harvey, just back from the USA where they have been instrumental in the success of the latest range of Gunboats. Phil and Laura know, like no other how to build a stunning high tech cat.
(Source: Harvey Yachts )

Might it be, that both have seen by time (already in late summer 2014) that the Gunboat company of Peter in USA has to file bankrupcy... and they went to South Africa wisely as they have seen there from the former yacht building of the first Gunboats in SA, that there are excellent handcraftsmen at "low wages" ???
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Old 19-11-2015, 22:44   #89
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Re: Gunboat International sues Chinese boatyard

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Originally Posted by Skip JayR View Post
Have you noticed this ?

(Source: Harvey Yachts )

Might it be, that both have seen by time (already in late summer 2014) that the Gunboat company of Peter in USA has to file bankrupcy... and they went to South Africa wisely as they have seen there from the former yacht building of the first Gunboats in SA, that there are excellent handcraftsmen at "low wages" ???
i do have issues understanding how detached workforce of indochina can produce meaningfull quality boat. one should at least have some passion for sea. As far as i can see almost no indian and a bit more chinese actually swim in ocean.
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Old 20-11-2015, 15:32   #90
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Re: Gunboat International sues Chinese boatyard

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Originally Posted by arsenelupiga View Post
i do have issues understanding how detached workforce of indochina can produce meaningfull quality boat. one should at least have some passion for sea. As far as i can see almost no indian and a bit more chinese actually swim in ocean.
Last tim e I checked India and China were not in Indochina.
As to the substances of your post, it is so wrong on so many levels
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