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Old 01-10-2015, 17:51   #46
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Re: Gunboat International sues Chinese boatyard

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Originally Posted by colemj View Post
And that GB55 built in North Carolina seemed to suffer build quality problems that caused it to be abandoned offshore on its maiden voyage.

Maybe eventually they will find a place to build them that can produce a higher standard of quality?

Mark
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Old 01-10-2015, 18:59   #47
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Re: Gunboat International sues Chinese boatyard

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Originally Posted by Skip JayR View Post
If one would gift it to me... I would not be worried too heavily about that it was produced in China, or maybe its a kind of "gunboat copy". :-)

It cant be all bad this boat is equipped with.

Following this thread and thematic since days with interests I wonder: we all use lots of products "made in china". From TVs, smart phones to T-Shirts etc. ...

And most of these Chinese products we use daily are of such bad quality ?

In my understanding Gunboat in USA should concentrate themselfs to build good boats, and not accusing the Chinese.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Asian menthality is (very) different. In Asia it is an honour to be copied, it counts as something to give respect to the original builder. Thats why Asians dont feel badly to copy. Its a very long culture since hundreds or even thousands of years.

If one want let produce in another country, he has to accept that there exist different mentalities, different understandings about business makings and different cultural values. As I see it, the Gunboat owner has not learn his lessons.

Its the only mistake by the management/owner of Gunboat USA themselves not having learnt how to deal with such "cultural barriers". At least it would have needed a 50-50% partnership to establish the trust. Nobody can do business in such countries without a deep going trustbuilding process. You cannot do formalistically on the basis of contracts and undersigned paper business in such countries.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

The real knowledge is not stolen in my understanding, it is just copies... there is an old saying. "The original is always better than the copy".

If I'd have known, that the Gunboat is produced by a subcontractor logically I'd have visited him and ask him to build me the boat directly. Why should I pay 200-300% a higher prize ? That doesnt make sense.

The foiling knowledge is in the hands of the Dutch, c/o Holland Composites. To build a hull in 100% carbon is not a huge drama anymore in times of infusion, 3D modelling, CAD etc. ... one can hire quickly a designer around the world. And as we know the Gunboat was designed by MM. So what is the Gunboat management doing ? Simply said, they are only a sales structure... thats all.

Most parts from winches to masts to sails and engines are deliverd from suppliers. So all that knowledge is same not developed "in house".

To demand 10 million compensation for an economical damage is far away from reality. Lots of noisy show making. It communiates the name "Gunboat" heavily around the globe. Maybe a smart marketing gimmick trick by the owner.

Gunboat should concentrate on what is their business: Building good boats ! And overtake herefor 100% responsability. So I see it.
You should read posts 33 & 34 regarding some real world experience in China with copying. Without a fundamental culture of boatbuilding sure a copy can look the same but without the proper real structural engineering in the copy particually with composite catamarans it can be very dangerous to have a structural failure at sea.

I am not saying that decent boats can't be built in China just that more than one builder had had serious issues trying to build there.

Certainly care needed. Beware.
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Old 02-10-2015, 05:11   #48
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Re: Gunboat International sues Chinese boatyard

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You should read posts 33 & 34 regarding some real world experience in China with copying. Without a fundamental culture of boatbuilding sure a copy can look the same but without the proper real structural engineering in the copy particually with composite catamarans it can be very dangerous to have a structural failure at sea.

I am not saying that decent boats can't be built in China just that more than one builder had had serious issues trying to build there.

Certainly care needed. Beware.
Sure... no doubt about this. downunder. Some boat owners will pay the prize by sunken yachts. We will read such headlines by sure. Thats always the way of "progress & development". No risks, no chances.

This new development we will see over next 10-20 years in other places, too. Not only in China. Soon we will see boat warfts in Africa. Why should they only import "Western products" ??

There is a new wealthy middle class in (West & South) Africa, within the community of black people. In Mobile IT they are one of the world leaders already. - If they feel to have an own African Identity they will prefer African boat builders. - So why should they not learn to build modern, elegant and fast sailing yachts ? Such countries will go through try & error, no doubt... but same we went through in Western world.

I only remember the huge number of bankrupcies we experienced over last years... so to read in January 2015
3 Yacht Builders that have Bounced Back from Bankruptcy

We may not forget, in China and in Africa there are already very, very super rich people... I know Indian company owners. For them a small company is something in the size of 10,000 workers. Thats small for them.

I remember the headline in 2012:
"Jan. 10 (Bloomberg) -- Ferretti Group was sold to the state-owned parent of China’s biggest bulldozer-maker, putting the Communist nation in control of the world’s largest luxury-yacht builder."

The times Western (post) industrialized countries have over-dominated the word are gone... big money is done in Asia. These are the future markets even for yachting & boating.

Same we see up-coming the new self confidence in South America. They try to find their own identity, and they will be successfully. You can see it everywhere from Chile up to Equador. - And one day they will build yachts again. Unluckily in Brazil many, many warfts have closed in financial crisis.

Everywhere on this planet we have smart people... to be intelligent is not just the luxury of Western world (luckily). - its just how the knowledge transfer works, thats relevant. E.g. a completely take over as seen with Ferretti is the quickest way to grab the knowledge.

Shall an African or South American student of naval architecture visit a Western University, then experience practical work in a Western boat building company and going back to his home country to start a "copy" of what he had learnt ?

I dont think, this is the future anymore. So it happened last century.

In the future these countries/continents will have their own universities. They organize own investors, will take Professors from Western world and will educate their own students in the own country. So it works these days in the Arabian countries and in India very successfully. In India every year 1 million engineers leave the universities with a diploma in pocket. Huge brainware the Western countries cant compete against. As we see with the new Google boss Sundar Pichai (from South India).Such smart Indians can be very successfully everywhere. Same will happen in boat building. India has 400 ports on the West coast alone.... lots of knowledge in boat building.

The times are gone, that Americans can think to control the world with a military super power... thats what makes me most upset about the accusation by Gunboat owner against Chinese. It sounds like George W. Bush era. We dont need this anymore as it only evokes new conflicts.

Forcing other countries to be servants for the huge American energy hunger and madness for quick money making (so called "American dream") belongs to the past. - Too many Americans have to learn this probably most urgent and more than every other nation.

Its a good lesson par excellence happening with Gunboat. People should take a closer look at the real reasons behind, and not being blind waving emotionally "stars & stripes" flag.

I always had been a cosmopolit, I am a civilian of mother earth. I dont care about national borders... no sailor should do so as winds dont know such borders, too. :-)
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Old 02-10-2015, 05:46   #49
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Re: Gunboat International sues Chinese boatyard

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Originally Posted by EllisElectric View Post
Gunboat was suppose to have an onsite quality control representative in China. Can't believe all the rhetoric from GB, seems like a pattern of using cheap labor. China, South Africa and now North Carolina all areas for cheap labor for one of the most expensive cats on the market.
Just thought to mention the South African comment - we hail from there and must say after cruising many miles now they do have some of the best quality boat builders there ... watched a number of Gunboats come out of the factory ... it all comes down to the boat representative / company having their own quality controller on site. One cannot simply 'outsource' without any sort of 'quality management team present' when it comes to high performance vessels - I can easily see misunderstandings creeping in when that happens ....
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Old 02-10-2015, 07:03   #50
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Gunboats coming from South Africa...

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Originally Posted by impi View Post
...to mention the South African comment - we hail from there and must say after cruising many miles now they do have some of the best quality boat builders there ... watched a number of Gunboats come out of the factory ... it all comes down to the boat representative / company having their own quality controller on site. One cannot simply 'outsource' without any sort of 'quality management team present' when it comes to high performance vessels - I can easily see misunderstandings creeping in when that happens ....
yep... good quality is not just knowhow in the technical context. Its all about "re-lationship" of the team. :-)

hm... you say, that GB was produced in South Africa ? - Right ?

Wondering... is the American owner selling the plans ? So as a buyer I can let build it everywhere I want ? - Kind of licence fee business ?
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Old 02-10-2015, 07:14   #51
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Re: Gunboats coming from South Africa...

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Originally Posted by Skip JayR View Post
yep... good quality is not just knowhow in the technical context. Its all about "re-lationship" of the team. :-)

hm... you say, that GB was produced in South Africa ? - Right ?

Wondering... is the American owner selling the plans ? So as a buyer I can let build it everywhere I want ? - Kind of licence fee business ?
Yes - very true !!

And yes, certainly GB were also produced in Cape Town South Africa - in fact - I watched the launch of Phaedo, I think it was called - met the owner there - some years back now ...

I am not sure of the license fees and I believe Gunboat shut down in SA - I had heard they were having financial difficulty - but then again - its all hearsay so I can't be sure of any of this - and perhaps it was related to the Cape Town production arm? Cheers.
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Old 02-10-2015, 07:27   #52
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Re: Gunboats coming from South Africa...

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Originally Posted by impi View Post
And yes, certainly GB were also produced in Cape Town South Africa - in fact - I watched the launch of Phaedo, I think it was called - met the owner there - some years back now ...
Ah.. interesting. Didnt know.

Yes, the Gunboat 66 (not the G4 with foils) was well known... it sailed the Carribean 600 in 2011... a speedy boat even without foils.


Isnt it the same owner who races now the Trimaran Phaedo3 (MOD70) ? By sure it was Lloyd Thornburg, right ?

This boat was dismasted in 2013 during the Transpac...
Transpac 2013 15 July report | The Daily Sail


And these days we see Thornburg racing the MOD70.... Trimarans are less risky for setting new record marks. :-)
Phaedo3 sets new World Record on Fastnet Race original course - Yachts and Yachting Online

https://vimeo.com/136704805
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Old 02-10-2015, 07:29   #53
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Re: Gunboats coming from South Africa...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Skip JayR View Post
yep... good quality is not just knowhow in the technical context. Its all about "re-lationship" of the team. :-)

hm... you say, that GB was produced in South Africa ? - Right ?

Wondering... is the American owner selling the plans ? So as a buyer I can let build it everywhere I want ? - Kind of licence fee business ?
Yes - very true !!

And yes, certainly GB were also produced in Cape Town South Africa - in fact - I watched the launch of Phaedo, I think it was called - met the owner there - some years back now ...

I am not sure of the license fees and I believe Gunboat shut down in SA - I had heard they were having financial difficulty - but then again - its all hearsay so I can't be sure of any of this - and perhaps it was related to the Cape Town production arm?

Anyway - many good quality builds come out of South Africa - Southern Wind also has its yard there, and they produce great boats - not saying this because I hail from there - its just a fact ...
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Old 02-10-2015, 07:34   #54
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Re: Gunboats coming from South Africa...

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Originally Posted by Skip JayR View Post
Ah.. interesting. Didnt know.

Yes, the Gunboat 66 (not the G4 with foils) was well known... it sailed the Carribean 600 in 2011... a speedy boat even without foils.


Isnt it the same owner who races now the Trimaran Phaedo3 (MOD70) ? By sure it was Lloyd Thornburg, right ?

This boat was dismasted in 2013 during the Transpac...
Transpac 2013 15 July report | The Daily Sail


And these days we see Thornburg racing the MOD70.... Trimarans are less risky for seeting new record marks. :-)
Phaedo3 sets new World Record on Fastnet Race original course - Yachts and Yachting Online

https://vimeo.com/136704805
Very interesting - yes thats the one! I am not sure - think it was Lloyd. It was launched right alongside us in Elliot Basin (where we berthed Impi) so we got to chat to them 'on and off'. In fact a number of GB productions came out of Cape Town - I have mates who delivered them abroad.

I think Cape Town also became difficult because the port authority shut down a lot of the basin for more lucrative returns so the Elliot Basin was a major shut down. They now manufacture Tug Boats there mostly for Germany.
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Old 02-10-2015, 07:55   #55
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Re: Gunboat International sues Chinese boatyard

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Seems some/most of us have difficulty with the DOS principle.
For the life of me I can't figure out what the DOS principle is and it's going to bother me all day. Care to elaborate?
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Old 02-10-2015, 08:05   #56
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Re: Gunboats coming from South Africa...

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I think Cape Town also became difficult because the port authority shut down a lot of the basin for more lucrative returns so the Elliot Basin was a major shut down. They now manufacture Tug Boats there mostly for Germany.
I understand... hm... I live in Germany. The Tug boats under "Dutch Flag" have ruined since more than 10-15 years the business of German boat owners/captains.

The Tug boat fleet swapped from Netherlands into harbours like Hanseatic City Hamburg on Elbe river... grapping the major part of business as they have the biggest most powerfully tug boats.

Provocatively the hulls of the Dutch captains are painted in orange...


...while the tug boats of the German skippers are painted in black.
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Old 02-10-2015, 18:14   #57
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Re: Gunboat International sues Chinese boatyard

Some pretty interesting thread drift going on here. Some of us were interested in discussing the issues of Chinese quality wrt Chinese boatbuilding (relating to catamaran example from OP), now we have Dutch tugs ??

Another issue to consider is what comeback an owner would have on a Chinese builder when things went seriously wrong? I guess it's a rhetorical question as I guess it would be zilch, nada, adios amigo! 😩

Is everyone aware that Landrover was copied 100% and spent big bucks in the Chinese courts to try and enforce their IP rights, and despite blindingly obvious copying of registered design IP, they lost the case? That says it all for me. If Landrover can't have IP rights upheld in China, boat designers have no chance.


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Old 02-10-2015, 18:21   #58
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Re: Gunboat International sues Chinese boatyard

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Gunboat International sues Chinese boatyard | Trade Only Today


....seems to me I've heard this story too many times.

Always had a reluctance to doing boat business there,...too much unskilled labor, and no trust.
We do business in both Korea & China with our special affiliates. Both have pirated our machines and even sold them with our brand attached. One broke off & started a competing firm. Japanese firms not much different. There is no honor here and no concept of intellectual property or patent protection. Rule of law??? Naaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa.
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Old 03-10-2015, 01:52   #59
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Re: Gunboats coming from South Africa...

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.... I believe Gunboat shut down in SA - I had heard they were having financial difficulty - but then again - its all hearsay so I can't be sure of any of this ...
And herein lies (part of) the rub...a LOT of cape town based suppliers to GB still tell how they were left out of pocket when GB 'shut down' in SA and ran off without settling their bills. Some took years to recover, some didn't recover at all. Employees arrived at work one morning to find the gates locked and their jobs gone without notice. Customers boats were left unfinished. So I find it a little rich for GB to feel aggrieved and accusing the Chinese of unethical business practices....a line about living by the sword seems appropriate here...
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Old 03-10-2015, 03:57   #60
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Re: Gunboat International sues Chinese boatyard

I remember a story of Caterpillar writing off $500mil for false accounting practices after an acquisition in China. This was a couple years ago.

Special Report: How Caterpillar got bulldozed in China | Reuters
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