Gunboat International sues Chinese boatyard

[geoff326]

Originally Posted by Emerald Sea

This story has been told so many times with Chinese shipyards, of small and large vessels. I've been employed with offshore construction companies for a career where we've (very occasionally) contracted shipbuilding to various Taiwan and Chinese yards over the years and each and every time its been met with significant quality deficits, schedule delays, cost overruns. Even the first lesson of basing our own QC management and inspectors at the yard has found substandard products that runs all the way down the supplier chain to the base supplier of a raw metal or resin, for example. Unfortunately, the best contracts in the world are not going to support you in the laws of China. And suing them, been down that route, will take years and cost more than you may expect. Go in with wide open eyes and significant contingency dollars. Sorry to hear this for Gunboat.

To be fair though, several well known builders of catamarans have blood on their hands. Maverick and FP for starters.

[a64pilot]

I work at an aircraft manufacurer, years ago we had a contract to have flight controls built in China, to meet FAA requirements, we had to ship the materials to maintain traceability, but let me tell you, the workmanship was excellent, truthfully much better than the ones we build here.


Sent from my iPad using Cruisers Sailing Forum

[downunder]

Originally Posted by poiu

I just checked out that website. It does put a different twist to the whole affair as you suggest. Looks like Gunboat are getting thoroughly shafted. it's just normal business in China. The words 'Chinese copy' come to mind. Oh dear, looks a real mess.

I think you are right - normal business in China to outsmart western operators.

Seems to be common practise in China.

I know of an Australian builder that started to build vessels in China and had a similar problem to Gunboat. Not having a background in designing and building sailing vessels meant the Chinese did not see the need for the exacting layups required for structual integrity with multihulls even though the plans showed every detail. His supervisors would often go in and have to rip out and redo work that had been done overnight.

The firm also knocked up a couple of unauthorised vessels with severe structual deficiencies that are truly dangerous.

As he said "it seems that everyone has had problems with the Chinese as their business model is adverserial i.e. to rob and destroy the other person. Unfortunately you don't realise this at first as when they are in the courtship phase everything is smiles and you think you are entering into a synagistic relationship that will be good for all.

Wrong, you are entering the business equiviant of the wild west prepare for a heist, and forget any laws as they wont work. Good luck to Peter Johnson he'll need it. "

Cheers

[BigBeakie]

Hi Downunder,

It actually gets worse than that.

When the Chinese copy a design, like Farnova Yachts did and continues to do with the 52' cat we are both aware of, there are those that will take that knock-off and try to sell it to unsuspecting buyers outside of China who do not realise the risks. As in try to sell it in Australia!!!

I don't mean just "borrow" a good idea here and there, I mean complete total ripoff of the exact dimensions, hull lines, everything.

The trouble is, something can look like the real thing from the outside, but if it is made with inferior materials and techniques, and short cuts compromise the structural integrity of the boat, then peoples lives can be at risk.

The seas can be an unfriendly enough place as it is, let alone going to sea in "disaster-waiting-to-happen" Chinese built boats.

[beiland]

Originally Posted by a64pilot

I work at an aircraft manufacurer, years ago we had a contract to have flight controls built in China, to meet FAA requirements, we had to ship the materials to maintain traceability, but let me tell you, the workmanship was excellent, truthfully much better than the ones we build here.

I think you may had hit upon one aspect of the problem of building in China,....the source of the building materials. I suspect you were not only worried about 'traceability', but also viability.

It is not as in many countries that have a history of building boats that can often have multi sources to get the best prices and quality of building materials. I believe in many cases there are NO sources for the proper materials needed for a particular product within China, so those materials need to be 'invented' by another Chinese subcontractor,....good luck with that in a hi-tech world.

As just an example, does anyone recall the little electronics snafu a few years ago where a subcontractor was supplying capacitors to many builders of electronic equipments,...TV's, computer flatscreens, etc, etc. And many of those final products were failing due to blown capacitors on the circuit boards. Obviously that subcontractor was not producing very good quality capacitors,...a relatively simple item to make correctly,...must have been cutting some corners himself to make the almighty dollar.

[boatman61]

ROFLMAO... so much for all the Elitist ******** about Quality Catamarans vs French crap...

[Heath68]

Originally Posted by beiland

I would imagine this is another guise to learn the process of building those planes, so they eventually kick the mother company out, and go into production themselves.

I don't know if the US showed an undercover investigative program we saw about the Dreamliner... bascially none of those that built them would dare fly in them... maybe they're not much better than the Chinese ?

[navy davy]

I noticed that the Gunboat build in china was an all "green" power called "flow motion re-generation system" (something like that) where the entire boat was electric powered and re-generation by the electric sail drives reversing the props while under sail to produce electricity back to the battery banks. Even the dinghy had an electric motor. This is not the first time I have heard of this green technology (along with windvane/solar pannels). The Tag carbon cats are doing the same thing. I wonder if the "GREEN" power has anything to do with the law suit ?

[navy davy]

I emailed Gunboat and asked if they could build an all green boat for me and they said NO ! Funny how the china build was advertised as an all green build, and now nothing else is being built by Gunboat as an all green boat. I think from what I can see with the new carbon foam batteries and the electric motors, solar,wind,hydro, electric power does work in a big way. The Tag cats are out in front on this and I plan to stay off the grid for as long as I can, CHEAP POWER ! YEA !

[downunder]

Originally Posted by navy davy

I noticed that the Gunboat build in china was an all "green" power called "flow motion re-generation system" (something like that) where the entire boat was electric powered and re-generation by the electric sail drives reversing the props while under sail to produce electricity back to the battery banks. Even the dinghy had an electric motor. This is not the first time I have heard of this green technology (along with windvane/solar pannels). The Tag carbon cats are doing the same thing. I wonder if the "GREEN" power has anything to do with the law suit ?

There is a gunboat available for charter in the Carribean somewhere with prototype torguedo deep blue electric drives after torguedo purchased moonwave.

Hybrid Drives - Torqeedo

How the hybrid catamaran was born

[navy davy]

CORRECTION: on my previous post about the China Gunboat I did go back to the youtube video about the china Gunboat... Named "Moonwave" and it uses a Hybrid power system called moonwave power pack. The boat does have a deisel generator for extended range motoring of the all electric drives, along with solar. The question I had for gunboat was if they would build a gunboat for me with the moonwave power pack system in it like what was advertised with the Gunboat "moonwave" and they said NO ! so I wonder if something caused a problem with a deal about incorperating the moonwave hybrid system with Gunboat?

[downunder]

Sailing Catamaran for Charter - Gunboat 60 - MOONWAVE

[downunder]

If you can afford a gunboat I am sure Morelli & Melvine could arrange for you to build a similar catamaran with any drive system you desired.

I believe Torquedo have been doing a fair bit of development recently.

Most likely cheaper.

cheers

[beiland]

Originally Posted by navy davy

I noticed that the Gunboat build in china was an all "green" power called "flow motion re-generation system" (something like that) where the entire boat was electric powered and re-generation by the electric sail drives reversing the props while under sail to produce electricity back to the battery banks. Even the dinghy had an electric motor. This is not the first time I have heard of this green technology (along with windvane/solar pannels). The Tag carbon cats are doing the same thing. I wonder if the "GREEN" power has anything to do with the law suit ?

That's an interesting thought. i can well image the Chinese builders having problems with the electrical technology bound up in these diesel-electric hybrid boats.

Look back thru the many problems that TAG experienced, and a great number of others. It is an emerging technology that has many nagging problems still existing, ...regrettably

[Skip JayR]

Originally Posted by downunder

Sailing Catamaran for Charter - Gunboat 60 - MOONWAVE

If one would gift it to me... I would not be worried too heavily about that it was produced in China, or maybe its a kind of "gunboat copy". :-)

It cant be all bad this boat is equipped with.

Following this thread and thematic since days with interests I wonder: we all use lots of products "made in china". From TVs, smart phones to T-Shirts etc. ...

And most of these Chinese products we use daily are of such bad quality ?

In my understanding Gunboat in USA should concentrate themselfs to build good boats, and not accusing the Chinese.

Interesting in the whole story is, that the most relevant part, the foils are being produced in Netherlands by HC - Holland Composites. Thats the most relevant knowhow of the whole boat so I see it.

It remembers me the story in my own family:

My grand, grand, grand pa was linnen maker in the 19th century, living and working in Europe. He travelled by ship to USA to learn from the American linnen makers... as it seems, they had been the best.

After some years he came back home... with new knowledge. And produced linnen with the knowledge he had learnt from US. - Did anybody that time complain about that he produced linnen with methods he learnt from Americans ?? Of course not...

As so it goes... we all get benefit from that people learn from each other. And its good that boat builders learn from each other too. Concurrence makes business lively. The Gunboat owner/management is dreaming around to think, that they can keep their market position as monopolist. Thats an illusion.

Asian menthality is (very) different. In Asia it is an honour to be copied, it counts as something to give respect to the original builder. Thats why Asians dont feel badly to copy. Its a very long culture since hundreds or even thousands of years.

If one want let produce in another country, he has to accept that there exist different mentalities, different understandings about business makings and different cultural values. As I see it, the Gunboat owner has not learn his lessons.

Its the only mistake by the management/owner of Gunboat USA themselves not having learnt how to deal with such "cultural barriers". At least it would have needed a 50-50% partnership to establish the trust. Nobody can do business in such countries without a deep going trustbuilding process. You cannot do formalistically on the basis of contracts and undersigned paper business in such countries.

Another aspect: the extremly wage difference... as China (or Vietnam or Indonesia) are all low wage countries.

What would you do in the situation of a Chinese warft owner, seeing, that he delivers with his "cheap workers" a boat, lets say at a prize of 800,000 Thousand, and then the contractor sells this boat on another continent for 3 million. That is clearly a misuse.

The world is transparent, by Internet... nobody want to feel worthless and being misused. See all the refugees flooding now to Europe. Why they do it ? Because they want feel as something worthfully and free.

We all know, that in many areas of this world people work for 1/10 or even less, engineers, handcraftsmen whatever.... e.g. a cook in India gets paid 150 dollars, same cook in Western world earns 3000 dollars.

An engineer in East Asia gets 600-700 US dollars... an Engineer in Western world 8-9000 US dollars.

But the daily goods, e.g. computers, smartphones and cars or facilities mostly are on nearby same prize level as in Western world.

What would I do if I'd been an inhabitant being born in such a country and having a boat building company ??

Logically I would start to copy making the money on my own. Why should I deliver a boat for 800,000 Thousand paying my hard working employees at cheap wages of 500 dollars each per months or less, and then seeing that the contractor sells this boat to rich wealthy Westeners with a plus of 2-300 %.

Better doing this business on my own, isnt ? Logically. Asians are not stupid, they are smart people.

The real knowledge is not stolen in my understanding, it is just copies... there is an old saying. "The original is always better than the copy".

If I'd have known, that the Gunboat is produced by a subcontractor logically I'd have visited him and ask him to build me the boat directly. Why should I pay 200-300% a higher prize ? That doesnt make sense.

The foiling knowledge is in the hands of the Dutch, c/o Holland Composites. To build a hull in 100% carbon is not a huge drama anymore in times of infusion, 3D modelling, CAD etc. ... one can hire quickly a designer around the world. And as we know the Gunboat was designed by MM. So what is the Gunboat management doing ? Simply said, they are only a sales structure... thats all.

Most parts from winches to masts to sails and engines are deliverd from suppliers. So all that knowledge is same not developed "in house".

To demand 10 million compensation for an economical damage is far away from reality. Lots of noisy show making. It communiates the name "Gunboat" heavily around the globe. Maybe a smart marketing gimmick trick by the owner.

Gunboat should concentrate on what is their business: Building good boats ! And overtake herefor 100% responsability. So I see it.