GUNBOAT Dismasting

[smj]

Originally Posted by Going Walkabout

Very strange that as you say we know nothing since a number of witnesses on board. I know vetted reports have been given on another forum site. Don't you think it's strange that you are non the wiser following his disclosures. What about independent witnesses that were on board and not previously on the payroll of the boat builder. Where are the investigative reports by the sailing magazines? Where is the USCG detailed report and copies of interviews of the rescued?

This was not a boat that disappeared with all hands on deck lost. Very strange that you and so many no nothing.

But we have learned some things from the Skipper emails. So I will ask again what have we learned and what do we know from the minimum disclosure (IMHO) to date?

No one who was on the scene has given a reason for the mast falling, therefore all we are doing on this thread is speculating.

[44'cruisingcat]

Originally Posted by Going Walkabout

Very strange that as you say we know nothing since a number of witnesses on board. I know vetted reports have been given on another forum site. Don't you think it's strange that you are non the wiser following his disclosures. What about independent witnesses that were on board and not previously on the payroll of the boat builder. Where are the investigative reports by the sailing magazines? Where is the USCG detailed report and copies of interviews of the rescued?

I'd suggest there were NO witnesses to the mast failing.

ie. NOBODY was looking at the mast when it came down. So nobody knows why it happened.

And even if by some fluke somebody was sitting around looking at the mast the moment it came down, unless they happened to also be properly qualified, chances are even they wouldn't know exactly why it happened.

But you're quite free to go on believing in cover-ups and conspiracies...

[clockwork orange]

What we do know is that there are at last count 3 abandoned derilects floating around of the east coast of the US creating a hazard to other boats although the mono may have had the decency to sink by now. I sure hope someone finds them before someone hits one of them at night as time goes by the likeleyhood of that happening will only increase.

[RTB]

Originally Posted by smj

No one who was on the scene has given a reason for the mast falling, therefore all we are doing on this thread is speculating.

No gold stars, so a thumbs up will have to do.

Ralph

[Jon Eisberg]

Originally Posted by Going Walkabout

Where is the USCG detailed report and copies of interviews of the rescued?

Since when has the CG been issuing "detailed reports" of incidents of this type, where no lives were lost?

[Jon Eisberg]

Originally Posted by clockwork orange

What we do know is that there are at last count 3 abandoned derilects floating around of the east coast of the US creating a hazard to other boats although the mono may have had the decency to sink by now. I sure hope someone finds them before someone hits one of them at night as time goes by the likeleyhood of that happening will only increase.

Yeah, with the vast number of cruisers sailing in the North Atlantic north of Hatteras this time of year, surely it's just a matter of time... :-)

Can anyone recall a documented instance of a cruising boat colliding another cruising boat that has been abandoned at sea? Practically every year in a rally like the ARC, there seem to be accounts of some near misses with other crewed boats being actively sailed, folks running dark, not maintaining a radio watch or without a watch on deck or whatever, but I can't recall a case of a cruiser actually ever hitting another abandoned yacht...

Not to suggest it couldn't happen, of course, but I'm guessing the odds of doing so are roughly on a par with being struck by a meteorite while on an offshore passage... :-)

[Jon Eisberg]

Originally Posted by Going Walkabout

Very strange that as you say we know nothing since a number of witnesses on board. I know vetted reports have been given on another forum site. Don't you think it's strange that you are non the wiser following his disclosures. What about independent witnesses that were on board and not previously on the payroll of the boat builder.

Seems to me we've gotten a pretty full account, actually... Far more complete than many other similar abandonments/rescues, as a matter of fact... The only other recent one that comes to mind was the loss of the Alpha 42 BE GOOD TOO last January, and that story emerged largely due to the fact there just happened to be a writer for a major sailing publication on board... And, the abandonment of the Swan 46 WOLFHOUND the previous winter near Bermuda was fairly well documented, as well... But, typically, we rarely get anything remotely akin to 'the whole story' about these kind of incidents...

We do know the mast broke or folded somewhere above deck level, and there was no rigging failure at the deck level... That's about as much as is known about many rig failures offshore, I would guess... What do "WE" know about the loss of the rig on the Catana 47 LIKE DOLPHINS in the Salty Dawg Rally a couple of years ago, for instance? Why are you not calling for "investigative reporting" by the sailing magazines on that incident, among numerous others, for instance?

[clockwork orange]

Originally Posted by Jon Eisberg

Yeah, with the vast number of cruisers sailing in the North Atlantic north of Hatteras this time of year, surely it's just a matter of time... :-)

Can anyone recall a documented instance of a cruising boat colliding another cruising boat that has been abandoned at sea? Practically every year in a rally like the ARC, there seem to be accounts of some near misses with other crewed boats being actively sailed, folks running dark, not maintaining a radio watch or without a watch on deck or whatever, but I can't recall a case of a cruiser actually ever hitting another abandoned yacht...

Not to suggest it couldn't happen, of course, but I'm guessing the odds of doing so are roughly on a par with being struck by a meteorite while on an offshore passage... :-)

Jon, when I first suggested that the GB was a hazard being left afloat when it first happened the same argument of "few boats out there in the north atlantic at this time of year" was made by someone, were now a couple of months on and 2 more boats that shouldn't have been out there have also been abandoned, maybe they were the only other boats out there but I doubt it. My point is when you get lifted off and leave your boat afloat you are gambling with others lives and playing the odds, a very selfish thing to do imho but not surprising in this day and age where nobody even considers their possible impact on others. An abandoned boat is no different to the shipping containers floating around the oceans of the world and again while the odds of hitting one are slim the outcome could be disasterous. I have read of cases where someone has hit a container or at least that's what they thought, often times by the time you came on deck in the dark you would not know for sure what it was, container or boat or whatever. There have been boats that have gone missing with no trace of boat or crew ever found, I can think of quite a few in the Pacific and Tasman, Snow White , Midnight Express and Smackwater Jack all returning to New Zealand from overseas all lost without trace and more recently the big schooner Nina, im sure there have been similar cases of the coasts here also that don't come to mind that may or may not have hit some man made object left drifting around, well never know. We are now a month or two since rainmaker, the first of these boats was abandoned and if they are not found there will be more an more cruisers sailing out there so the odds of a collision goes up. I point these things out because I have owned 2 boats that were unsinkable and to be honest I had never given much (any) thought to what would happen in the unlikely event of having to abandon the boat until now. To me, because I am one of the few people apparently who do consider my effect on others I will now have to give some thought to this. The security of an unsinkable boat is great but how to scuttle?

Steve.

[transmitterdan]

This has been said a few times already but the crew had no way to intentionally sink RAINMAKER. That's just the nature of unsinkable boats. Surely we do not want to ban unsinkable boats from the cruising market. I agree with Jon, the odds of another cruiser hitting RAINMAKER or any other abandoned yacht is astronomically low.

[mikereed100]

Originally Posted by Going Walkabout

Where are the investigative reports by the sailing magazines? Where is the USCG detailed report and copies of interviews of the rescued?

The USCG does not investigate sailing accidents or interview the participants AFAIK. They likely lack the funding and, in the case of sailing boats, the expertise to evaluate sailing accidents.

Investigative reports by sailing magazines? Seriously?

Postmortems are a rarity in the sailing world. (A notable exception would be Richard Wood's loss of his Eclipse). We are usually left to gather whatever spotty information we can and draw our own conclusions. FWIW here are mine:

1. Even if you are a rock star sailing jock driving a 2.5 million dollar 'weapon', respect mother nature. Best to drop the main when a squall approaches in 40 knots and don't trust electronic devices to cover you if you are sailing on the edge.
2. The skipper and crew were amazingly well prepared for abandoning ship, less so for prevention. When sailing offshore, it is prudent to carry a parachute anchor and drogue, pre-rigged and ready to deploy.
3. Maybe a set of lowers would be in order on future boats.
4. Tempered glass is good stuff for boat windows. Tempered safety glass is better. Always carry enough plywood and screws to cover the biggest window on the boat.

[GoingWalkabout]

Originally Posted by Jon Eisberg

Seems to me we've gotten a pretty full account, actually... Far more complete than many other similar abandonments/rescues, as a matter of fact... The only other recent one that comes to mind was the loss of the Alpha 42 BE GOOD TOO last January, and that story emerged largely due to the fact there just happened to be a writer for a major sailing publication on board... And, the abandonment of the Swan 46 WOLFHOUND the previous winter near Bermuda was fairly well documented, as well... But, typically, we rarely get anything remotely akin to 'the whole story' about these kind of incidents...

We do know the mast broke or folded somewhere above deck level, and there was no rigging failure at the deck level... That's about as much as is known about many rig failures offshore, I would guess... What do "WE" know about the loss of the rig on the Catana 47 LIKE DOLPHINS in the Salty Dawg Rally a couple of years ago, for instance? Why are you not calling for "investigative reporting" by the sailing magazines on that incident, among numerous others, for instance?

Jon I suppose you and the others are right. It's probably too much to expect anything more. A boat failure of such an expensive boat with all those safety gizmos git my attention though. Just put it down to just another one of those things.

[GoingWalkabout]

Originally Posted by mikereed100

The USCG does not investigate sailing accidents or interview the participants AFAIK. They likely lack the funding and, in the case of sailing boats, the expertise to evaluate sailing accidents.

Investigative reports by sailing magazines? Seriously?

Postmortems are a rarity in the sailing world. (A notable exception would be Richard Wood's loss of his Eclipse). We are usually left to gather whatever spotty information we can and draw our own conclusions. FWIW here are mine:

1. Even if you are a rock star sailing jock driving a 2.5 million dollar 'weapon', respect mother nature. Best to drop the main when a squall approaches in 40 knots and don't trust electronic devices to cover you if you are sailing on the edge.
2. The skipper and crew were amazingly well prepared for abandoning ship, less so for prevention. When sailing offshore, it is prudent to carry a parachute anchor and drogue, pre-rigged and ready to deploy.
3. Maybe a set of lowers would be in order on future boats.
4. Tempered glass is good stuff for boat windows. Tempered safety glass is better. Always carry enough plywood and screws to cover the biggest window on the boat.

[Polux]

Originally Posted by mikereed100

The USCG does not investigate sailing accidents or interview the participants AFAIK. They likely lack the funding and, in the case of sailing boats, the expertise to evaluate sailing accidents.
....
Postmortems are a rarity in the sailing world. ...

Not really, I remember that the lost of a keel on a Bavaria 42 as well as on two First 36.7 were thoroughly investigated as well as a capsize of a Beneteau some years ago. I am sure this one is being thoroughly investigated by the mast building company, by the riggers and by the shipyard, but one thing is to being investigated to better the mast/rigging to prevent further incidents another thing is the advantage to bring it to the public and in this case it seems they think the advantage (for the brand) is to make the investigation confidential.

There are things they obviously know, that are fundamental to understand the accident and that were not disclosed, like the place where the mast broke.

[GoingWalkabout]

Originally Posted by Polux

Not really, I remember that the lost of a keel on a Bavaria 42 as well as on two First 36.7 were thoroughly investigated as well as a capsize of a Beneteau some years ago. I am sure this one is being thoroughly investigated by the mast building company, by the riggers and by the shipyard, but one thing is to being investigated to better the mast/rigging to prevent further incidents another thing is the advantage to bring it to the public and in this case it seems they think the advantage (for the brand) is to make the investigation confidential.

There are things they obviously know, that are fundamental to understand the accident and that were not disclosed, like the place where the mast broke.

[EllisElectric]

I read a lot of these post, nobody mentioned the dismasting of Pheado Gunboat 66 awhile ago. People were saying then the stock mast wasn't capable of Grand Prix racing, much less storm ridden water sailing">blue water sailing.