GUNBOAT Dismasting

[beiland]

Originally Posted by Going Walkabout

Thanks again Brian. Real sailing experience like yours beats all the theory in the world found in books. Not that I'm knocking books. ....

I have heard other ways to handle big waves is to slide broadside down them. That scares the willies out of me with some understanding of the lateral forces being applied to the vessel. Another is to go head in into the waves. When I had a motor boat in New York I would always point the bow into the waves. But then I've seen large ships do this and get almost buried as the wave crashes from bow to stern over them.

Please remember that I never did get a chance to actually utilize a parachute sea anchor in actual practice....never encountered another storm where I had one onboard.

But following that first big incident, I did manage to get my hands on this particular book that I referenced over in that parachute discussion:
Parachute Anchors, Para-Anchor, Sea Anchor - Page 3 - Boat Design Forums

.....This conclusion on my part was reached was as a result of 3 occasions of actual experiences at sea in storms, but never with a sea anchor onboard. It was following these experiences, and upon reading of others’ experiences with heavy weather tactics that I ran across one of the original books dedicated to the subject, “The Parachute Anchoring System” by John & Joan Casanova, Victor Shane, Daniel Shewmon. I also reviewed Victor’s original “Drag Device Data Base”. These books, and others on heavy weather sailing, combined with my previous practical experiences convinced me that in the ultimate situation the ‘anchor-at-sea’ approach was the best approach as long as it could be attained.

To quote Victor Shane;
“Every form of warfare involves a defense as well as an offense. There are times when the mariner can fight the elements and, with good seamanship, prevail. But there are also times when he must, in all wisdom, cease all offense and place his vessel in a defensive mode. Going with Mother Nature, and trying to keep up with Mother Nature are two different things!”

I've long ago lost that book I mentioned as having a profound influence on my way of thinking about ultimate storm survival at sea. I just found a photo of the cover of that book (and a few copies on Amazon).

This book contained a lot of reports from actual users of parachute sea anchors if I remember properly (and not just pleasure boat user, but also commercial fishing vessels). I would recommend you find a copy and see what your response might be

[Jon Eisberg]

Originally Posted by 44'cruisingcat

What on earth does that have to do with anything? Some journalists liked the boat, therefore it must be impervious to damage or failure of any type?

The idiocy of this thread continues unabated...

Well, it appears that the use of a sardonic reference to highlight the irony of the fact that this incident happens to be of a slightly 'Higher Profile' than the more 'typical' dismasting of brand new multi-million yachts, is beyond the ability of some here to comprehend...

;-)

[GoingWalkabout]

Originally Posted by 44'cruisingcat

You should email them and DEMAND ANSWERS!

You have a RIGHT TO KNOW!

Gunboat OWES YOU AN EXPLAINATION!

No. They don't owe me anything. They definitely owe the sailing world an explanation after all the hype about their unsinkable fortress at sea. They owe the buying public an explanation. An unseaworthy boat puts lives at risk. We all need to know what else happened than the dismantling.

I don't want to a have to second guess the honesty of a boat builders claims. I want to be able to buy a boat that I believe has meet a certain level of seaworthiness and the words of the builder can be trusted. I don't want to be sold a bill of goods.

What is at stake is the whole boat buying public's confidence and trust which can affect far more than one errant builder.

So be dismissive of those who are seeking the truth. After all what right does anyone have to ask questions.

[clockwork orange]

Does it not bother anyone else that the crew got off the boat to save their own skins and left it out there afloat to endanger others? My personal feeling is that if you choose to get lifted off it is your responsibility to sink the vessel to ensure it is not a risk to someone else's familyI, if you cant sink it set the damn thing on fire. While a commercial ship might not suffer any damage in a collision it could easily sink a regular small cruiser. We've seen plenty of examples of sailors doing the right thing when getting off the boat but a lot more folk thinking only of themselves and to hell with anyone else. Maybe the coast guard helo should be equipped to blow the thing out of the water after the crew has been lifted aboard, take the decision out of the hands of the owner.


Steve.

[GoingWalkabout]

Originally Posted by beiland

Please remember that I never did get a chance to actually utilize a parachute sea anchor in actual practice....never encountered another storm where I had one onboard.

But following that first big incident, I did manage to get my hands on this particular book that I referenced over in that parachute discussion:
Parachute Anchors, Para-Anchor, Sea Anchor - Page 3 - Boat Design Forums

This book contained a lot of reports from actual users of parachute sea anchors if I remember properly (and not just pleasure boat user, but also commercial fishing vessels). I would recommend you find a copy and see what your response might be

Brian. Thanks. I'll definitely see if I can get it on Amazon.

Thanks,
Chaya

[Training Wheels]

Originally Posted by clockwork orange

Does it not bother anyone else that the crew got off the boat to save their own skins and left it out there afloat to endanger others? My personal feeling is that if you choose to get lifted off it is your responsibility to sink the vessel to ensure it is not a risk to someone else's familyI, if you cant sink it set the damn thing on fire. While a commercial ship might not suffer any damage in a collision it could easily sink a regular small cruiser. We've seen plenty of examples of sailors doing the right thing when getting off the boat but a lot more folk thinking only of themselves and to hell with anyone else. Maybe the coast guard helo should be equipped to blow the thing out of the water after the crew has been lifted aboard, take the decision out of the hands of the owner.


Steve.

+1!


Sent from my iPad using Cruisers Sailing Forum

[Sand crab]

Originally Posted by clockwork orange

Does it not bother anyone else that the crew got off the boat to save their own skins and left it out there afloat to endanger others?

I doubt it would sink. Foam core.

[nigel1]

OK folks, I've had to edit a few posts which used a certain word used in a not very nice way.
Please keep to topic and clean, thanks.

[Polux]

Originally Posted by 44'cruisingcat

You should email them and DEMAND ANSWERS!

You have a RIGHT TO KNOW!

Gunboat OWES YOU AN EXPLAINATION!

If Gunboat did not give a dam about internet forums and internet information about their boats I guess that they could just sit tight and not talk about it, but the company has a policy of posting on internet forum about their boats and their performance, sometimes with what I find exaggerated claims regarding speed and seaworthiness so it makes sense that when things go bad that they use also internet forums to explain why things went sour. If they do otherwise their credibility could be looked as dubious.

I think it is Gunboat interest to come out with a full explanation.

[colemj]

Originally Posted by Jon Eisberg

During the process of cutting the rig free, seems likely someone might have come across something that could have given them a hint, or at least ruled out certain failures, no?

Possibly. However, I personally know three people who have dismasted at sea and all three of them were so busy cutting away the rigging before it holed the boat or did any more damage that they did not find a cause for the dismasting. One eventually found a bad rig component on deck after making landfall - but that was surreptitious.

Having listened to their stories, I don't think many here have any familiarity with what is happening when a rig goes down, nor have even given it much thought. It is not only dangerous to the boat itself, it is very dangerous to the people who are trying to free it. Getting the rig off takes a lot of careful coordination and focus - one doesn't just start cutting willy-nilly without ending up dead. And it isn't just "clip, clip, clip" and the rig is gone - it often requires saws, hammers, etc and a lot of force. Step in the wrong place, or cut one piece before another and someone might die.

So I don't think it is likely that someone was walking around at the time doing a forensic analysis, or even caring why the rig came down.

Mark

[beiland]

Plus you have some hi-tech rigging that often is NOT that easy to just 'cut'.

And likely they were not carrying such good tools to do such a cutting job?

[colemj]

Originally Posted by clockwork orange

Does it not bother anyone else that the crew got off the boat to save their own skins and left it out there afloat to endanger others? My personal feeling is that if you choose to get lifted off it is your responsibility to sink the vessel to ensure it is not a risk to someone else's familyI, if you cant sink it set the damn thing on fire. While a commercial ship might not suffer any damage in a collision it could easily sink a regular small cruiser. We've seen plenty of examples of sailors doing the right thing when getting off the boat but a lot more folk thinking only of themselves and to hell with anyone else. Maybe the coast guard helo should be equipped to blow the thing out of the water after the crew has been lifted aboard, take the decision out of the hands of the owner.

Think about it for a bit and then answer your own questions. The boat is (supposedly) unsinkable - even when cut into bits. Many catamarans are, so I have no reason to doubt this claim. Opening the thruhulls would do nothing except sink it lower in the water and prevent it from ever being intentionally removed from the sea.

Now think about the fire thing. Do you really think it is reasonable, or even POSSIBLE, to start a fire on a boat from the water? A boat that is in the water, being covered with water. Where does one find all this convenient accelerant necessary to start and maintain a fire capable of burning a carbon composite boat? How does one safely even light it when treading water outside the boat? Even if you did start a fire, it would only burn to the water line and then the rest of the boat would still be floating.

Now let's think about the helicopter gun blowing things up part for a few seconds. A rescue helicopter needs all the fuel and lightness it can get. This one couldn't even make it back to its base and landed at the nearest point of land running on fumes. So let's put a couple of 50mm machine guns, a couple of air to ground missiles and the related mounts, ammo, etc for them. Yes, that makes sense…

I'm with 44CC here - this thread has gone nuts.

Mark

[sailorboy1]

Originally Posted by colemj

Now let's think about the helicopter gun blowing things up part for a few seconds. A rescue helicopter needs all the fuel and lightness it can get. This one couldn't even make it back to its base and landed at the nearest point of land running on fumes. So let's put a couple of 50mm machine guns, a couple of air to ground missiles and the related mounts, ammo, etc for them. Yes, that makes sense…

I'm with 44CC here - this thread has gone nuts.

Mark

Would may a good advertisement "It takes a Gunship to sink a Gunboat"

[geoleo]

Originally Posted by beiland

Plus you have some hi-tech rigging that often is NOT that easy to just 'cut'.

And likely they were not carrying such good tools to do such a cutting job?

I have cut 1/2 dyneema with a steak knife

[Sand crab]

The Gunboats are some of the lightest boats out there. They have foam core and many of the interior components are honeycomb core. It also has 6 water tight bulkheads so sinking it is not gonna happen. Blowing it out of the water will just leave many large floating pieces instead of just the one.

The coasties are always training for a mission if not doing one. The pilots need their hours and everyone else has to be ready for any task that arises. The expenditures are the same. It is no difference rescuing a billionaire than rescuing you or me.

To recap: They were in a boat with no rig and no propulsion. Conditions were forecast to get worse. The owners son was on board. What would you do?