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Old 02-02-2015, 17:52   #121
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Re: GUNBOAT Dismasting

I find it interesting that some people on CF bring the owners net worth into the equation. I think it would be fair to say that any of us would be nothing short of proud to own that boat not to mention have a few extra bucks in the bank. Something bad happened and the mast fell.... Hopefully the good folks at Gunboat will figure out what happened and educate us all. Accidents happen and we all have made mistakes. Save judgement till the facts are revealed!
With respect to the brave men and women of the Coast Guard...they are there to help our sailors in times of great distress and protect our shores. They do a damn good job of it !!!!🌊

"The pessimist complains about the wind, the optimist expects it to change and the realist adjusts the sails."
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Old 02-02-2015, 17:55   #122
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Re: GUNBOAT Dismasting

I don't have a problem with their rout or the timing of it. I think the lesson is, when sailing downwind in 30 to 35 knots and you already are down to 3 reefs, and you see a squall coming, GET THE MAIN DOWN.

It's to hard to depower the main going down wind on a monohull let alone a cat. And what happens when you gybe. How many sticks have come down on monos because they left the chute up to long as the wind built up and they stuck the pole in the water. It's basic seamanship prudence. This has been going on since the fourteen hundreds.

I can see it maybe in a race, but on the way to the race there is no excuse. Just because they got away with it with the first squall, and then second, doesn't mean they are going to get away with it on the third squall.
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Old 02-02-2015, 18:03   #123
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Re: GUNBOAT Dismasting

Downwind in 30 + knots there would be absolutely no need or reason to have then main up. The boat will sail much better on just the headsail.
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Old 02-02-2015, 18:16   #124
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Re: GUNBOAT Dismasting

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Originally Posted by yeloya View Post
Sorry, I must have missed that..
Gunboat web site doesn't give the exact measurements of the main but from mast height I would have guessed something like 120 sqm. The specs again says that the standard is 2 reef points. So, if they were really sailing on 3 rd reef, they should have had a custom made sail with a 3rd reef which GB says is possible.
We don't know in this case how deep is the 3rd reef but let's make a guess, 30-40 sqm. + 40-50 sqm gib (if not rolled at all..) =max 70-80 sqm of sails up. This shouldn't bring down the mast, even at 70 kts of wind which I find hard to believe (not to 70 kts but to a jump from 35-40 to 70 in a matters of seconds) ..
I was cought in a 40-45 kts of wind from nowhere while I was sailing at sustained 20-22 kts of wind with full sails up (110 sqm) in an ordinary charter cat with alu mast. It lasted less than a minute or so, I just steered to run down wind, I have seen 12-13 kts of speed for a moment but that's all, nothing went down..(Remember that GB can easily make 25-30 kts when overpowered)

Just to speculate;
1-they were on AP and the skipper didn't have enough time to steer and depower the boat,
2-they had a very confused sea, very steep waves,
3-they were carying way too much sails than what was declared (they only had standard two reefs sail and not the custom 3rd one..)
4-the wind was even more than 70 kts, 80 maybe 85 ??
5-they overlooked something when setting up and tuning the rigging,
6-non of the above
7-all of the above..

Hope that GB management will make public the outcome of their investigation..

Cheers

Yeloya
Why not run the winds up to 100-120 knots, now everyone can see how this Cat just couldn't take it. The winds were probably less than reported as most people exaggerate winds and seas I'd say my view is that there was a fault in the rigging. It happens and its just one of the minor risks one takes when going to sea. Sometimes the stick falls down and it doesn't matter what the boat costs.
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Old 02-02-2015, 18:20   #125
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Re: GUNBOAT Dismasting

If you put the statement from the crew and that from the Coast Guard together it makes some sense. The crew said they were hit with a 70 knot wind with triple reefed main and storm jib and the CG said they hit a wave over the bow causing the mast to snap in half. Pretty plausible to me with a sudden jarring stop for the mast/boom to just keep going forward. It's interesting about the prop's being fouled by lines also. Wouldn't that be running rigging and result in the mast being hung below the boat by the props? That doesn't sound good or easily solvable.
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Old 02-02-2015, 18:28   #126
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Re: GUNBOAT Dismasting

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Originally Posted by 44'cruisingcat View Post
You could ask that about so many things.

Is it right to expect a fireman to risk his life rescuing someone who fell asleep smoking in bed?

Is it right to expect an ambulance driver to risk his life rushing a drink driver to hospital?

How about rescuing sailors in trouble in yacht races in bad weather? Or even in good weather?

You could go on and on..

Thankfully we have dedicated people in emergency services who do not cast judgement on others before going out and doing their jobs.

Your right, and I am thankful for the people in emergency services, I just hate to see someone's life put at risk because of another's poor judgement. It will be interesting to see what shape the boat is in if salvaged. And to me it would be a real shame if the boat was perfectly seaworthy and the owner called for rescue because they were uncomfortable or felt inconvenienced by the loss of the mast. Hopefully that isn't the case.
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Old 02-02-2015, 20:04   #127
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Re: GUNBOAT Dismasting

To me getting off a boat like that to be winched into a helo seems very risky compared to staying onboard and waiting for the weather to abate assuming that the boat is still structurally sound. It may be that although they probably have every electronic do dad known to man on board they may not have had a suitable parachute sea anchor to deploy and without such a device the boat would be at the mercy of wave action and rather uncomfortable but I cant think of a more comfortable boat to be uncomfortable on.
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Old 02-02-2015, 20:28   #128
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Re: GUNBOAT Dismasting

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Originally Posted by toddedger View Post
I don't have a problem with their rout or the timing of it. I think the lesson is, when sailing downwind in 30 to 35 knots and you already are down to 3 reefs, and you see a squall coming, GET THE MAIN DOWN.

It's to hard to depower the main going down wind on a monohull let alone a cat. And what happens when you gybe. How many sticks have come down on monos because they left the chute up to long as the wind built up and they stuck the pole in the water. It's basic seamanship prudence. This has been going on since the fourteen hundreds.

I can see it maybe in a race, but on the way to the race there is no excuse. Just because they got away with it with the first squall, and then second, doesn't mean they are going to get away with it on the third squall.
This makes sense. See the a similar (not as hairy, but still same concept) passage across the stream one month earlier on a Gunboat 66. From 34 sec to about 1:30 they are in tough conditions with just a small headsail, and seem to be almost enjoying it.

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Old 02-02-2015, 22:38   #129
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Re: GUNBOAT Dismasting

Certainly a great saloon/galley/cockpit space. What visability.
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Old 02-02-2015, 23:42   #130
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Re: GUNBOAT Dismasting

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We may not find out what really broke. I'm sure the GB folks will try hard to figure out what happened.

As to all the armchair people looking for malfeasance or incompetence just try to imagine if someone important was on a boat that had major damage (lost the rig) and you had many millions of dollars. You might care more about the potential loss of life than a stupid boat. There are lots of things that motivate people and we can't know all of them. Jumping to the conclusion that the motives are nefarious is not warranted IMO.
For what it may be worth after reading all of the posts on this subject I can't help but be reminded of the hubris of those operating the Titanic. A state of the art ship with all of the safety precautions that lead its owner to say that it could never be sunk. I suspect a touch of the same hubris existed in the case of the rainmaker and its makers. An over confidence in the new gizmos such as the automatic sail adjustment and wind gust auto protection etc. And I would agree not being outside feeling the elements and relying on the best technology ever invented, the human brain to take in information and to take action accordingly.
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Old 03-02-2015, 01:34   #131
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Re: GUNBOAT Dismasting

Perhaps the moderators could find a way to keep the 2nd paragraph from 'goingwalkabout' and delete the first (which was, at best, foolhardy). At worst it was... better stop there..
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Old 03-02-2015, 01:35   #132
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Re: GUNBOAT Dismasting

I'm going to take this thread back to the 70 knot gust, because I believe it happened. Here's why:

With frontal passages, there are often embedded storm cells, sometimes too small for predictions, which paint with a broader brush. But those puppies are there. We had one a few weeks ago, destroyed much of the cherry crop between the Huon River and Hobart, it was a black, not a white, squall, but the bugger had 55 knots in it, when prevailing winds were 30-ish.

There was a similar situation in Kettering, here in TAS, last year, which led to a dramatic rescue of an historic boat. That squall had an 80 knot burst. But it was a black squall, and most people noticed it coming. It is the white squalls that are more scary, because the warnings of their approach are more subtle, and you gotta be on deck to see. Plus, at night, I don't think you could see one coming., so only a daytime deal of saving yourself.

The wind instrument for the GB would have recorded the max gust strength.

What i think is hard for people to imagine is the geometric progression of wind strength, and how it affects boats. The thing to remember is that it is not, ever. linear.

Those seventy knots are such that you cannot stand up against them, although you might be able to wiggle along the deck on your belly, but better wear all your foulies and your swim goggles or dive mask and snorkel.

Can they come suddenly? Yes, but usually some warning, if you're paying attention, but might not be enough time to douse the main, even if you were. If you're insulated from the wind, the clear air squall advancing on you is very hard to see, although if it has rain or spray, your radar may "see" it. Sometimes hard to believe in, though. And the sea is already lumpy.

So, my overall point is something like, "judge not," etc.

Perhaps there are factors in the GB's design that might lead to unobservance of white squall coming. Anyone here who can speak to that?

Ann
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Old 03-02-2015, 03:53   #133
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Re: GUNBOAT Dismasting

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ann T. Cate View Post
I'm going to take this thread back to the 70 knot gust, because I believe it happened. Here's why:

With frontal passages, there are often embedded storm cells, sometimes too small for predictions, which paint with a broader brush. But those puppies are there. We had one a few weeks ago, destroyed much of the cherry crop between the Huon River and Hobart, it was a black, not a white, squall, but the bugger had 55 knots in it, when prevailing winds were 30-ish.

There was a similar situation in Kettering, here in TAS, last year, which led to a dramatic rescue of an historic boat. That squall had an 80 knot burst. But it was a black squall, and most people noticed it coming. It is the white squalls that are more scary, because the warnings of their approach are more subtle, and you gotta be on deck to see. Plus, at night, I don't think you could see one coming., so only a daytime deal of saving yourself.

The wind instrument for the GB would have recorded the max gust strength.

What i think is hard for people to imagine is the geometric progression of wind strength, and how it affects boats. The thing to remember is that it is not, ever. linear.

Those seventy knots are such that you cannot stand up against them, although you might be able to wiggle along the deck on your belly, but better wear all your foulies and your swim goggles or dive mask and snorkel.

Can they come suddenly? Yes, but usually some warning, if you're paying attention, but might not be enough time to douse the main, even if you were. If you're insulated from the wind, the clear air squall advancing on you is very hard to see, although if it has rain or spray, your radar may "see" it. Sometimes hard to believe in, though. And the sea is already lumpy.

So, my overall point is something like, "judge not," etc.

Perhaps there are factors in the GB's design that might lead to unobservance of white squall coming. Anyone here who can speak to that?

Ann
I was out in that 80 knot Squall and while strong winds were predicted many people still got caught out. I don't sail (powerboat) but I erred on the side of caution and headed for a bay before things got nasty, and nasty they got. A number of boats were anchored near us and nearly all started dragging anchors, many others in the channel had to be rescued and another broke her mooring and went past us up onto the rocks. I doubt many vessels with sails up would of survived that without damage.

It certainly seems Rainmaker got caught out in a similar fashion but they were 200 miles out. Good to see all were rescued without injury or potentially worse and after all at the end of the day it is only a yacht.
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Old 03-02-2015, 05:37   #134
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Re: GUNBOAT Dismasting

It wasn't that long ago that a newly built Cat with a magazine writer onboard suffered rudder failure after getting backed up in a wave. Now we are hearing about the mast going on this Cat because it hit a wave. Is there just as much reason to critique the Gunboat construction as there was on the last one??
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Old 03-02-2015, 06:16   #135
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Re: GUNBOAT Dismasting

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Originally Posted by clockwork orange View Post
To me getting off a boat like that to be winched into a helo seems very risky compared to staying onboard and waiting for the weather to abate assuming that the boat is still structurally sound. It may be that although they probably have every electronic do dad known to man on board they may not have had a suitable parachute sea anchor to deploy and without such a device the boat would be at the mercy of wave action and rather uncomfortable but I cant think of a more comfortable boat to be uncomfortable on.
Oh man...
First.... The boat was CLEARLY taking on water.... Things can go from "manageable dewatering" to "we have less than 5 minutes" in a heartbeat...

When you call for help... They come when it is best determined by the professionals....

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Originally Posted by chris in SG View Post
Perhaps the moderators could find a way to keep the 2nd paragraph from 'goingwalkabout' and delete the first (which was, at best, foolhardy). At worst it was... better stop there..
I'll send a PM and help explain the rules and etiquette...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ann T. Cate View Post
I'm going to take this thread back to the 70 knot gust, because I believe it happened. Here's why:

With frontal passages, there are often embedded storm cells, sometimes too small for predictions, which paint with a broader brush. But those puppies are there. ......

What i think is hard for people to imagine is the geometric progression of wind strength, and how it affects boats. The thing to remember is that it is not, ever. linear.

Those seventy knots are such that you cannot stand up against them, although you might be able to wiggle along the deck on your belly, but better wear all your foulies and your swim goggles or dive mask and snorkel.

So, my overall point is something like, "judge not," etc.

Ann
+1x1,000x.....

(quote redacted for clarity)
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