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category4jay · 27-02-2015, 10:42

2.5 Million.....? as in USD$? Come on. So let me get this straight. You find it. Cut the lines around the props. Fire it up and motor off into the Sunset. Is that what the sea salvage laws say?

Sand crab · 27-02-2015, 11:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by category4jay

2.5 Million.....? as in USD$? Come on. So let me get this straight. You find it. Cut the lines around the props. Fire it up and motor off into the Sunset. Is that what the sea salvage laws say?

Not quite. You can only expect reasonable compensation. If the boat was able to be motored then it would still retain a fair amount of value and you would have to prove that your salvage costs were more than that. Even if it sunk and was pumped out and salvaged it would still be worth a pretty good price. Remember that this is an all epoxy boat and epoxy is almost totally waterproof so in theory the structure would be in good or better condition with little or no core issues.

Law of salvage - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Polux · 27-02-2015, 16:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by donradcliffe

...The dismasting was most likely a design problem, .. and is related to the fact that it is a cat. ...

Why do you say that?... not regarding the rig design problem (that has a good chance to be on the origin of the accident) but the fact that is related with being a cat?

A design problem (inadequate design) can happen on a cat rig or on in any other kind of sailboat...or do you consider that this particular design problem is specific to cats?...For Saying that you would have to know what was the design problem and what went wrong. Do you know that?

**neilpride** · 27-02-2015, 22:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Polux

Why do you say that?... not regarding the rig design problem (that has a good chance to be on the origin of the accident) but the fact that is related with being a cat?

A design problem (inadequate design) can happen on a cat rig or on in any other kind of sailboat...or do you consider that this particular design problem is specific to cats?...For Saying that you would have to know what was the design problem and what went wrong. Do you know that?

In 2 words.
Mast pumping, lack of checkstays lowers.
Cats are exposed to greater rig loads than a monohull.

Jon Eisberg · 28-02-2015, 06:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by neilpride

They get busted by the weather conditions with a expected forescast, WTF,,, no one in their right mind cast off with this kind of weather in this particular time of the year, try to cross Biscay in Winter with a dirty forescast and you can get a nasty kick in the ass or worst, Cape Hatteras in Winter or the gulf stream you should respect this área very carefully no matter how many Carbon fiber is lay on the hulls... 25 to 30 knts forescasted sounds a lot to me if you include squalls, seas, and the fact that in Winter things change really fast... from a previous fool who wait 20 days to make a decent Biscay croosing in Winter , but each in their own, i guess the skipper learn the lesson.....

Or, maybe not...

Quote:

SA: And is 40+ knots in the North Atlantic in winter really Gunboat weather in your opinion?

CB: I’ve sailed about 30,000 NM on Gunboats in winds up to 65knots, and always come through. We were extremely careful in our preparations and felt ready for anything, and I wouldn’t hesitate to take a Gunboat into that forecast again.

post mortem | Sailing Anarchy

Jon Eisberg · 28-02-2015, 06:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sand crab

And weren't the conditions forecast to get worse?

Not exactly a factor unknown prior to their departure, however... :-)

Very little wiggle room for the possibility of anything going wrong in that passage plan... This is what they were hoping to be able to "sail around", to use the words of Gunboat's hype...

Again, to be clear, I'm not questioning the decision to abandon RAINMAKER, and I suspect there was more that went into that decision than we've been led to believe... Along with many others, it seems some decisions made before the boat ever left the dock in Wanchese that might appear the ones open to second-guessing...

tomfl · 28-02-2015, 07:22

Not quite the same thing but it is common to play weather systems when crossing from South Florida to the Bahamas, rather like RM was playing the weather system on this passage. Not saying it would be my first choice but I understand how some folks would try and play this system.

Let's keep in mind GBS have been out in worse weather than was predicted and got safely back to port.

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**neilpride** · 28-02-2015, 08:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jon Eisberg

Or, maybe not...

Hehe, 65 knts,!!! and with the owner and son onboard sure , why not?

Guess im going to get bombed with comments for saying this but, main rule to me,, DONT sail long offshore trips with the owner onboard,, thats it...

Dont underestimate the weather conditions ,,, he fail and they pay the Price.

And never fire a engine with a tangled mess hanging in one side, until you are complety sure is clear from the props....

30.000 miles or whatever,,,,,,

**Jim Cate** · 28-02-2015, 12:33

Quote:

And never fire a engine with a tangled mess hanging in one side, until you are complety sure is clear from the props....

That comment brought a thought to mind: With Dyneema rigging, all the loose bit of rigging in the water after a dismasting FLOAT. That is in contrast to s/s wire and Dacron running rigging which sinks and gets out of the way. Seems that with the Dyneema there is a bigger chance of getting bits around the prop(s).

I had never thought of that before...

Jim

**neilpride** · 28-02-2015, 12:55

Rookie mistake, and also Dyna is tough to cut, i dont want to sound lik a ass, but in this situation is where the skipper need to calm down and think about it...

Stumble · 28-02-2015, 13:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim Cate

That comment brought a thought to mind: With Dyneema rigging, all the loose bit of rigging in the water after a dismasting FLOAT. That is in contrast to s/s wire and Dacron running rigging which sinks and gets out of the way. Seems that with the Dyneema there is a bigger chance of getting bits around the prop(s).

I had never thought of that before...

Jim

Dyneema floats, but just barely. It's density is something like .9985 compared to water of 1. The air trapped in the mast is likely the major culprit for boyancy.

And Neil if my choice was try and use the engine to back away from a rig that was bashing my hull, or stay there to make sure I didn't wrap an engine, I would have used the engine. One way may end badly, the other is causing actual damage to the boat now.

SVNeko · 28-02-2015, 13:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by neilpride

Rookie mistake, and also Dyna is tough to cut, i dont want to sound lik a ass, but in this situation is where the skipper need to calm down and think about it...

come on man, this is the ultimate in armchair skippering

**Jim Cate** · 28-02-2015, 14:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stumble

Dyneema floats, but just barely. It's density is something like .9985 compared to water of 1. The air trapped in the mast is likely the major culprit for boyancy.

And Neil if my choice was try and use the engine to back away from a rig that was bashing my hull, or stay there to make sure I didn't wrap an engine, I would have used the engine. One way may end badly, the other is causing actual damage to the boat now.

FWIW, my reference says Dyneema 75 has a density of 0.97-0.98. My experience is that it does indeed float in seawater.

And I didn't mean that the buoyancy of the Dyneema would hold up the mast, nor do I think the mast would hold much trapped air, for masts with internal halyards have a lot of holes, top to bottom.

What I am talking about is the situation where with the mast over the side, you start cutting away the rigging, be it s/s or textile. There is a big mass of bits in the water, some attached to the mast, perhaps some free. If s/s, they will hang down from their attachment point. If buoyant, as in Dyneema, they will "hang" upwards from their attachment point, and possibly be in way of the props. If the running rigging is also Dyneema, it adds to the mess.

So, this is what lead to my posting above... something I hadn't considered before, and possibly something that contributed to RM's problems.

Jim

GoingWalkabout · 28-02-2015, 20:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by neilpride

Hehe, 65 knts,!!! and with the owner and son onboard sure , why not?

Guess im going to get bombed with comments for saying this but, main rule to me,, DONT sail long offshore trips with the owner onboard,, thats it...

Dont underestimate the weather conditions ,,, he fail and they pay the Price.

And never fire a engine with a tangled mess hanging in one side, until you are complety sure is clear from the props....

30.000 miles or whatever,,,,,,

And the skipper said he would do it again. Isn't reckless disregard for human life a crime?