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Old 31-01-2015, 09:58   #31
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Re: GUNBOAT Dismasting

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Originally Posted by colemj View Post
Umm, I don't think you understand this well. The rig is supposed to be designed to take normal high sailing forces.

Lots and lots and lots and lots of monos have had rigging failure.

How do you explain that?

Geez, if it had flipped, then you would have been blaming the rig not letting go.

Mark
Mark--

I have nothing against the class or type of boat. Unfortunately, however, the "stiffness" of the multi-hull design results in the rigs having to endure far greater loads than similar sized rigs on mono's. (The analogy of a reed bending to the wind and the "Mighty Oak" standing fast and resisting it.) Whether the cause of this particular failure will ever be discovered remains to be seen. It could have been a fluke. N'any case, with such a sudden blast of wind--a "White Squall" for all intents--a crew has little time to react and more than one boat has been knocked down or dis-masted in such conditions. However, a boat's ability to yield to the wind does offer some measure of protection, at least for the rig,
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Old 31-01-2015, 10:01   #32
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Re: GUNBOAT Dismasting

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Originally Posted by CptLawrence View Post
Assuming rigging fouled a prop or rudder and washing machine conditions of the gulf stream battling a north wind swell and maybe no storm anchor aboard or rigged for quick deployment, assuming not everyone aboard was experienced with gulf stream rage on a vessel smaller than a cargo ship then calling for help is the next step.

Assuming a pro weather router told the skipper that there was a window and was wrong then might the insurance company sue the router's insurance?
Hmmm, lots of assumptions there, at least one of which appears to be wrong:

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The skipper is very experienced, he and I have got +/-10k miles together on GBs. We've been in 50+ sustained for hours on multiple occasions. I don't question his decision making at all. He had great back up, too. His other crew has 4+ trans-Atlantics just on GB's. I'd go to sea with those guys any time.

PLEASE SAY A PRAYER FOR RAINMAKER'S CREW - Multihull Anarchy - Sailing Anarchy Forums
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Old 31-01-2015, 10:10   #33
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Re: GUNBOAT Dismasting

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They were sailing in squalls, i prefer to motor in squalls rather than assume they will not worsen. Is it common for boats like that to endure those condition? If not i wonder what the motivation was to push through.
Just a hunch, but I'd suggest the desire to have a $2.3 million CRUISING WORLD Boat of the Year make her scheduled appearance on the Red Carpet at the Miami Boat Show likely factored in to it, somewhere...

;-)
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Old 31-01-2015, 10:27   #34
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Re: GUNBOAT Dismasting

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Originally Posted by Jon Eisberg View Post
Just a hunch, but I'd suggest the desire to have a $2.3 million CRUISING WORLD Boat of the Year make her scheduled appearance on the Red Carpet at the Miami Boat Show likely factored in to it, somewhere...

;-)
Unfortunately, Jon, I suspect you are correct. And, there is a certain sad irony in the yacht's name, "Rain Maker"-in business typically someone who generates business for a firm--which I suspect Gun Boat officials expected of the boat at the boat show. The outcome of the effort may have the reverse effect...
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Old 31-01-2015, 10:29   #35
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Re: GUNBOAT Dismasting

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Originally Posted by svHyLyte View Post
Mark--

I have nothing against the class or type of boat. Unfortunately, however, the "stiffness" of the multi-hull design results in the rigs having to endure far greater loads than similar sized rigs on mono's. (The analogy of a reed bending to the wind and the "Mighty Oak" standing fast and resisting it.) Whether the cause of this particular failure will ever be discovered remains to be seen. It could have been a fluke. N'any case, with such a sudden blast of wind--a "White Squall" for all intents--a crew has little time to react and more than one boat has been knocked down or dis-masted in such conditions. However, a boat's ability to yield to the wind does offer some measure of protection, at least for the rig,
If you are trying to infer that any/all monos would have survived in the same situation, that's pure conjecture. Knockdowns have caused de-masting!
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Old 31-01-2015, 10:38   #36
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Re: GUNBOAT Dismasting

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Originally Posted by Jon Eisberg View Post
Just a hunch, but I'd suggest the desire to have a $2.3 million CRUISING WORLD Boat of the Year make her scheduled appearance on the Red Carpet at the Miami Boat Show likely factored in to it, somewhere...
Then no reason to cross or even enter the Gulf Stream....

2 Hulls Dave
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Old 31-01-2015, 10:44   #37
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Re: GUNBOAT Dismasting

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If you are trying to infer that any/all monos would have survived in the same situation, that's pure conjecture. Knockdowns have caused de-masting!
Jeeze--My reference to "boats" in the post you quoted was generic and without regard to mono or multi. Of course mono's have lost rigs in such events and no doubt many more than multi's considering the relative numbers of each type. My point was, for the final time, simply that multi's tend to more heavily load their rigs which, accordingly, for a given length yacht, need be relatively stronger.

Here Homer nods...
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Old 31-01-2015, 11:39   #38
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Re: GUNBOAT Dismasting

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Originally Posted by svHyLyte View Post
Mark--

I have nothing against the class or type of boat. Unfortunately, however, the "stiffness" of the multi-hull design results in the rigs having to endure far greater loads than similar sized rigs on mono's. (The analogy of a reed bending to the wind and the "Mighty Oak" standing fast and resisting it.) Whether the cause of this particular failure will ever be discovered remains to be seen. It could have been a fluke. N'any case, with such a sudden blast of wind--a "White Squall" for all intents--a crew has little time to react and more than one boat has been knocked down or dis-masted in such conditions. However, a boat's ability to yield to the wind does offer some measure of protection, at least for the rig,
I understand this fully, but again, I don't think you do. Have you ever compared multi rigging to mono rigging? Everything about it is designed to handle these loads, as well as having a large safety margin. Keep in mind that this boat's rigging was synthetic.

Yes, at some point the strength of the rig may be overcome and failure occur.

This happens with all boats - mono or multi. I will bet you a dollar that overall there is no appreciably greater margin of protection afforded from a similar sized mono heeling. The difference is in the rigging specs for each - each will take about similar loads before failing at similar times.

You have no information on the failure mode in this case, yet you are damning the type of boat for causing it.

Again, a tremendous number of monos have dismasted. How do you explain that using your reasoning?

Mark
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Old 31-01-2015, 11:57   #39
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Re: GUNBOAT Dismasting

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Then no reason to cross or even enter the Gulf Stream....

2 Hulls Dave
Was it headed to St Maarten, not Miami?

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Old 31-01-2015, 12:11   #40
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Re: GUNBOAT Dismasting

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Originally Posted by colemj View Post
Umm, I don't think you understand this well. The rig is supposed to be designed to take normal high sailing forces.



Lots and lots and lots and lots of monos have had rigging failure.



How do you explain that?



Geez, if it had flipped, then you would have been blaming the rig not letting go.



Mark

Exactly correct, to me it seems as if it performed exactly as designed, when faced with a sudden, irresistible force, it failed in such a manner to leave both the boat upright and water tight, and the crew un-harmed.

Any boat regardless of number of hulls I assume caught in sudden harsh winds with too much sail up, something bad is likely to happen.

I do wonder why it was abandoned, I can only guess owner had, had enough and either could afford the loss, or had good enough insurance to where he wasn't worried.




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Old 31-01-2015, 12:44   #41
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Re: GUNBOAT Dismasting

Yes It was. Big $$$. Why these problems? Will we ever know?
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Old 31-01-2015, 13:12   #42
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Re: GUNBOAT Dismasting

Rain Maker reportedly had a computer-controlled system to relieve tension on the standing rigging and prevent dismasting:

"Gunboats like Cohen’s also come equipped with a computer-activated trimming system that will ease sheets if the loads on the shrouds holding up the mast get too heavy. That didn’t stop one well-known 62-footer named Elvis from nearly flipping in a recent Caribbean race." (Forbes article).

Most likely rigging failure, IMHO. In the 13' choppy seas enough snap-stress was repeatedly placed on the chainplates, rigging screws, tangs, or whatever to cause a break. Not likely the carbon-fiber mast broke if the standing rigging remained intact.

For me, the question remains: should ANY boat which purports to be "ocean-going" and "passage-making" not be able to withstand 13' seas and 40-knot winds, possibly with higher gusts???

I can think of a number of 30-40 year old much smaller boats which in the reported conditions and if sailed correctly would have been very uncomfortable, but not likely to lose a mast.

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Old 31-01-2015, 13:15   #43
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Re: GUNBOAT Dismasting

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I do wonder why it was abandoned, I can only guess owner had, had enough and either could afford the loss, or had good enough insurance to where he wasn't worried.
The owner is a venture capitalist probably worth several hundred million dollars...

His son was aboard the boat, as well...

I'm gonna guess it was not the paid captain, who made the final call... :-)
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Old 31-01-2015, 13:18   #44
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Re: GUNBOAT Dismasting

I understand that this boat was hull #1 of the series. My feeling is that the manufacturer and/or the insurer will leave no stone unturned to recover the boat and analyze the cause of failure. I have to imagine owners of already delivered boats might be getting a little nervous that there maybe more to this incident than a "squall, a wind wall"
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Old 31-01-2015, 13:45   #45
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Re: GUNBOAT Dismasting

Yet another typical CF thread - a cat loses it's mast, so all cats are doomed. Yet we see numerous threads about mono's sinking, sometimes resulting in the death of their entire crews, and no multihull owner feels the need to jump in and condemn monohulls.
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