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Old 11-02-2015, 22:11   #331
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Re: GUNBOAT Dismasting

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Originally Posted by Jim Cate View Post
If I had just paid multi millions of dollars for that boat, I would view failure of any part of the rig as a reflection of the entire design. Having ANY "crap equipment" on such a boat is totally unacceptable.

Jim
Utterly ridiculous. So the brass seacocks fitted to Beneteaus (and many other production boats) means their design is crap?

And brass is KNOWN to be a poor material for seacocks. A well made carbon mast is a proven product.
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Old 11-02-2015, 23:06   #332
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Re: GUNBOAT Dismasting

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A well made carbon mast is a proven product.
Yes indeed, but well made ones seldom fall down.

And to compare this with a brass-valved Bennie is, in your well selected words, "Utterly ridiculous". The GB is supposed to represent the no holds barred top of the line fast cat. It isn't an entry level mono...

Perhaps if I used a different word than "design"... say "total package" instead, would you say that this rig failure reflected poorly upon the whole package that went for some multi million dollar (I don't remember the number, but it was pretty damn big) price tag? I know that I would be pretty upset, even if insured.

44, you seem to leap into the fray anytime a multihull is criticized in any way on this forum. Note that in an earlier post I said how exciting, fast and attractive that boat was. I have just been expressing my own opinion that it fails the tests that to me define a cruising boat for normal long term short handed usage... and that was what Pollux was saying this boat was good for. (Sorry about the convoluted sentence.)

And I still think that having any "crap equipment" on such a vessel is unacceptable, as is the view that it could have been such a bit that brought down the mast, and somehow that made it OK. You are entitled to your own view.

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Old 11-02-2015, 23:31   #333
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Re: GUNBOAT Dismasting

I'm sure you got the point, event though you pretend not to. Condemning an entire design because one component failed, for reasons we don't even know, is ridiculous.


Bottom end of the price spectrum or top end, makes no difference.
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Old 11-02-2015, 23:55   #334
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Re: GUNBOAT Dismasting

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Condemning an entire design because one component failed, for reasons we don't even know, is ridiculous.
Even when that one component is the mast? Come on, 44, surely having a questionable mast design/construction/rigging is enough to say that the boat is not a good long term short handed cruising boat. Is is for me, anyhow.

And the conjecture that the whole failure was due to some unspecified small, inexpensive component is just that: conjecture. It could also be that the fiber rigging was poorly designed or executed, or that the mast section was too small or that the carbon work was not well done... all of which are unacceptable for the supposed purpose.

I'm not saying that the concept of the GB 55 is bad. I'm saying that this particular boat was not a good cruising boat. I can't say why it failed but fail it did. This situation would discourage me from buying one for the purpose of long term short handed cruising.

As I have said before, I hope that the boat is recovered and diagnosed, and that whatever the shortcomings were they can be remedied. But I think that boats that push the performance envelope this far are not well suited for short handed cruising. Racing or record attempts or simply blasting around faster than everyone else, with a competent crew... great! Needing an alert watchkeeper with their hand on the mainsheet (or the dump button??) isn't in the cards for most passage making couples, and it seems that the touted auto-dump may not quite be perfected yet.

I'm sorry that you seem to find my view on this to be ridiculous; I kinda find your blind acceptance of a failed vessel equally invalid.

So lets not be calling each other ridiculous, eh? I've presented my view and some support for it, and I'll stick with it until some objective information convinces me otherwise. Invective will not accomplish that result.

Jim
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Old 12-02-2015, 00:42   #335
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Re: GUNBOAT Dismasting

Boy, you guys sure do go on and on😄. Has anybody heard any salvage updates?


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Old 12-02-2015, 03:06   #336
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Re: GUNBOAT Dismasting

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Boy, you guys sure do go on and on
You know, you are absolutely correct. I'm outta here, and thanks for the heads up. I get carried away sometimes.

Jim
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Old 12-02-2015, 03:31   #337
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Re: GUNBOAT Dismasting

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Originally Posted by Sailingcouple13 View Post
Let's put this in perspective, If you could buy a state of the art gunboat 55 right now at say $5,000 and set sail 200 miles of North Carolina at speeds you never imagined
At speeds YOU may never imagined ?

A time on distance calculation shows an average of around 5.5 knots (from evans starzinger on another thread)
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Old 12-02-2015, 06:16   #338
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Re: GUNBOAT Dismasting

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Originally Posted by 44'cruisingcat View Post
This thread is getting beyond ridiculous. ONE boat has had it's mast fail, for reasons we don't even know yet, and people are writing the entire boat design off?
44. The problem is the manufacturer sold this boat on the basis that it had systems to survive catastrophic storm failure. When you tout systems that then don't work you have a serious problem.

The other issue for me is the total lack of disclosure surrounding this event and the contradictory statements that so far came out at the beginning. You had one on board eyewitness who said the mast came down after a large wave hit the front of the boat. Another said the boat was hit with a 70 knot wind. So what was it, wind or wave? If wind, why didn't there super duper sail system protections work? If a wave then my goodness are you telling me its carbon mast can't survive a big wave? Or since the boat is known to not have the usual front beam cats have was this a contribution to the demasting from a frontal large wave.

Why now this deafening silence? Where are the eyewitness accounts? Could it be that the manufacturer stands to loose all credibility that could sink their business that some compensation dollars in exchange for signing a secrecy agreement has been done with the eyewitnesses. Just thinking since no one is now talking.

And finally what happened to the boats own location systems?

Too many questions that raise serious doubt over this vessel. If I money was no object I wouldn't be in a rush to buy this boat now. And as for those who are saying we should be celebrating a builder who is at the bleeding edge of technology. I understand that the owners of these cats are not buying say an Oracle type racing cat. They are buying what was sold as a seaworthy ocean going fast cat. Not something that is a high performance racer that often looses a mast as it's pushed to its limits. After all these racers usually go out to sea with back up vessels nearby.
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Old 12-02-2015, 06:34   #339
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Re: GUNBOAT Dismasting

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Originally Posted by Going Walkabout View Post
The other issue for me is the total lack of disclosure surrounding this event and the contradictory statements that so far came out at the beginning. You had one on board eyewitness who said the mast came down after a large wave hit the front of the boat. Another said the boat was hit with a 70 knot wind. So what was it, wind or wave? If wind, why didn't there super duper sail system protections work? If a wave then my goodness are you telling me its carbon mast can't survive a big wave? Or since the boat is known to not have the usual front beam cats have was this a contribution to the demasting from a frontal large wave.
I can easily see both interpretations being "correct". It is entirely possible that each saw wind and wave, respectively, at the time the mast came down. It is also possible that the mast falling down had no connection to either event, or was due to one or the other of them. It is human nature to need to assign cause to event - so whichever experience one finds most impressive at the time of an event usually gets initially assigned as the cause.

There is too much emphasis here on that automatic mainsheet dump. That system supposedly monitors loads on certain parts of the boat and dumps the sheet appropriately. However, the mast or rigging components could have failed well below designed loads - or the event could have happened so fast as to precede a dump - or the dump alone was not enough (a dump offwind is useless, a dump with no steering is useless, etc). This event doesn't damn the purpose or function of that system - or even correlate with it.

The lack of a crossbeam is meaningless. A crossbeam would possibly make the mast and rigging even more susceptible to a wave impact. The only way the lack of crossbeam could have mattered is if the design or structure itself was faulty. However, this is absolutely no different than having a faulty design or structured crossbeam. I have seen several crossbeams fail, or be at the point of failing.

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Old 12-02-2015, 06:35   #340
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Re: GUNBOAT Dismasting

Did wind bring down the mast or was it a wave or more to the point are the two mutually exclusive not to mention could there been other factors as well that contributed.

I am still not convinced the standing rigging was not compromised by wind blown debris before the bow was buried in a wave just before a micro burst hit. There are plenty of combinations of events that could bring down the mast of even the best designed and built boat.

Even if money was no consideration I probably would not buy a GB, but given the chance to cruise on one I would do it in a New York minute just not in the North Atlantic in a winter storm.

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Old 12-02-2015, 06:35   #341
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Re: GUNBOAT Dismasting

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So if you were in 70kt winds and your mast fell down because of faulty equipment would your boat no longer be a cruising boat?
There are 1,000s of posts on CF were the answer you will get is that if equipment of any type fails it is the fault of the boat manufacturer.
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Old 12-02-2015, 06:46   #342
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Re: GUNBOAT Dismasting

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There are 1,000s of posts on CF were the answer you will get is that if equipment of any type fails it is the fault of the boat manufacturer.

Actually that's how it works. When manufacturers choose to use certain products on their build then they are responsible because they made that choice! On the stuff they built its the same thing. You don't hear the big manufacturers crying when a major recall hits that it was a subcontractors part do you? G B is responsible for every part on their boats period, if by mistake they chose a product that was under sized or not strong enough it is entirely their responsibility.
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Old 12-02-2015, 06:48   #343
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Open Saloon/Cockpit Layouts

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This is from the GB listing on Yacthworld .The Seawind is separated by doors that are folded up and out of the way....
Just sayin'

Rather than several smaller spaces on the main deck chopped up by bulkheads, the GUNBOAT 55 has one huge uninterrupted space from the mast to the aft crossbeam. Let's face it, the moment we step aboard any cat, the aft doors and windows are opened immediately, and usually stay open until we leave the boat. Why not be able to have an open aft end when conditions permit? If it gets cold or damp, the aft end seals up snug as a cocoon with a semi-rigid enclosure.
I made a few comments and posted some photos of the 'upcoming' new Gunboat designed 'open saloon' arrangement over on another forum:
Weekender/Picnic PowerCat - Page 2 - Boat Design Forums

This one particular vessel Freya looked to be a great design for the Caribbean atmosphere:
Weekender/Picnic PowerCat - Boat Design Forums
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Old 12-02-2015, 06:58   #344
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Re: GUNBOAT Dismasting

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So now I'm confused. If a Gunboat 55 gets caught in 70 knot winds and loses its mast, then the crew gets airlifted it's not a blue water boat. But if a Westsail 32 gets caught in 70 knot winds, does a 360 and comes up without its mast then the crew gets airlifted it's still a blue water boat. I would guess the Gunboat 55 would be a hell of a lot more comfortable after the loss of the mast as everything would still be pretty much in place, where the Westsail would have all its contents, including battery acid floating around above the floorboards. Now which boat took care of its crew? What truly makes a blue water boat? All that said, even if I could afford one I wouldn't buy a Gunboat 55. I can definitely afford a Westsail 32 but I'd be damned if I'd own one of those either.
Seems to be a somewhat unfair unfair comparison.. A more valid hypothetical would be if the Gunboat, like the Westsail in your scenario, loses its rig as a result of a capsize... Multihulls, as a general rule, don't do 360s very well ;-)

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So the question stands. Is the Westsail 32, one of the most seaworthy vessels built, more seaworthy than the Gunboat 55? When it comes to seaworthiness length does matter. Which boat would you have rather been on?
If your hypothetical includes the mandate that I'd have to be carrying the sailplan being used by the crew of RAINMAKER - a triple-reefed main and small jib, I'd rather take my chances with the Westsail... However, if I could select my own sailplan, i might go with the Gunboat, running to bare poles, or with a scrap of headsail flying... ;-)

If I had to wallow around out there in the wake of a dismasting, I think I'd take the Gunboat... Especially if there were a para-anchor aboard (I'd love to know whether they were carrying one aboard RAINMAKER) But if lying to a series drogue, the Westsail wins hands down... So, as is the case with virtually every one of these hypotheticals/discussions, the only reasonable answer is:

"It DEPENDS..."


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Old 12-02-2015, 07:08   #345
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Re: GUNBOAT Dismasting

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Originally Posted by Jon Eisberg View Post
If I had to wallow around out there in the wake of a dismasting, I think I'd take the Gunboat... Especially if there were a para-anchor aboard (I'd love to know whether they were carrying one aboard RAINMAKER) But if lying to a series drogue, the Westsail wins hands down...
I'm curious to understand your reasoning. Series drogues are active steering devices with the boat moving downwind at reduced speed, so one doesn't really lie to them like a parachute. A mono - particularly a Westsail 32 - is a rollamatic machine down-seas, while a catamaran hardly notices them.

Having a lot of experience with both monos and multis, I would vastly prefer running with a series drogue on a multi than a mono. I would not prefer a parachute on a multi unless one really did need to stop dead in the water.

But with either one, I would suspect the multi to have vastly more comfortable motion than a mono.

Mark
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