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Old 09-02-2015, 16:26   #271
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Re: GUNBOAT Dismasting

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Originally Posted by Jon Eisberg View Post
It was reported by Johnstone that both engines were disabled with lines wrapped around the props...

.... - but I think it's a bit unfair to assume their decision to abandon was not justified. At this point, we simply don't know enough about what was really going on aboard RAINMAKER at that time... It's one thing to second-guess their decision to leave when they did, and so on, but another to doubt the legitimacy to bail once they'd lost the rig...

In any event, whether justified or not, the choice to abandon certainly does not surprise me... Not sure it's been confirmed yet, but a review of the owner's sailing resume strongly indicates this trip was likely his FIRST offshore passage, ever. He'd certainly never experienced anything remotely close to those conditions while racing his Swan 40 on and around Long Island Sound, and there's no indication he'd ever done something like the Bermuda Race in the one boat he'd owned prior to RAINMAKER... If there's one thing a venture capitalist worth hundreds of millions probably understands quite well, it's when to cut his losses ;-) Especially with his son aboard, it's not hard to imagine him getting on the satphone, and demanding to be taken off that freakin' thing NOW... Just a hunch, but I'm doubting it was the 28-year-old paid skipper who made the final decision to jump ship...

;-)

.....
I was not questioning their decision to abandon the boat, only saying that I did not understood the reasons....and that means also insufficient information. Thanks for the post that puts a lot more light over the subject.

Regarding accidents with multihulls, lost masts, broken boats and capsizes, I am more familiarized with the ones on racing multihulls and I have an huge admiration for those sailors: They rarely abandon the boats and manage to bring them to port, with mast, no mast or even broken boat. Recently one of them stayed for 15 days living on a capsized multihull to be sure the guys that were coming to tow the boat got it right (they managed to re-right the boat). of course these guys are professionals and among the best sailors out there...and it seems (for what you say) it was not properly the case on the Gunboat.
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Old 09-02-2015, 19:14   #272
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Re: GUNBOAT Dismasting

Not that this initial comment has anything to do with the de-masting of the GB55 however I am surprised only Palarran has questioned the open aft end of the deckhouse. What do they put up when sailing offshore? Is it just a canvas structure like a dodger? I can just imagine water running along the aft deck thru the dodger and into the main cabin in those conditions. Then running down into the hulls and thus the boat taking on water not because of damage but simply because of a poorly designed offshore vessel. Honestly this looks more like a party boat for daysails rather than anything designed for the ocean. Certainly not so in the rest of the GB line.
I also agree with those who commented on the forward steering position. I do not care how experienced this 28 year old skipper was.....with strong wind and waves with a large steep following sea I would think you would have a much better feel for the conditions further aft than way forward. An accidental jibe could have been the final straw.
But maybe I have it all wrong.
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Old 09-02-2015, 19:48   #273
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Re: GUNBOAT Dismasting

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In reality, these boats are not cruisers. I have never seen one in a cruiser anchorage with a smoking grill hanging off the stern, fishing rods in rod holders, and laundry on the lifelines and I've been in a lot of anchorages where real cruisers are getting together for happy hours and pot lucks. I've seen them anchored - or preferably docked - in St. Maarten waiting for the Heineken Regatta and in their home harbors, but never in a remote cruiser's anchorage with actual cruisers aboard having a sundowner. Never. Rather, these are toys for affluent day sailors and wanna be international racers - delivered from location to location by hired crews. This doesn't mean they are not sexy boats worthy of being swooned over. But cruisers? Absolutely not. Please do not insult real cruisers by use of that term...
Ya know, I have to agree with this. I'd even question calling them passage makers!

Fast, fun, exciting, attractive in appearance (by cat standards)... they are terrific, but from a genre as yet unnamed (AFAIK)... not cruiser, not racer, not voyager... what the hell are they, anyhow?

And I too hope for her recovery, and (with less hope of realization) full disclosure of what happened.

Jim
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Old 09-02-2015, 20:34   #274
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Re: GUNBOAT Dismasting

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Originally Posted by Jim Cate View Post
Ya know, I have to agree with this. I'd even question calling them passage makers!

Fast, fun, exciting, attractive in appearance (by cat standards)... they are terrific, but from a genre as yet unnamed (AFAIK)... not cruiser, not racer, not voyager... what the hell are they, anyhow?

And I too hope for her recovery, and (with less hope of realization) full disclosure of what happened.

Jim
Jim. I can't agree more. I'm new to CF but I am wonderfully pleased to see the high level of intelligence and BS radar amongst you all. You sailors are :big grin: a pretty smart bunch.
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Old 09-02-2015, 22:21   #275
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Re: GUNBOAT Dismasting

Interesting comment on incoming water into the hulls. I have not been on the 55, do they not have water tight hatches going below? That could cause many issues after losing the mast. Our boat is open just like the gunboat 55 the only time we have any issues with water comming close to entering the cabin is when we stop moving. Such as blowing out a sail. We start both engines and keep moving. We do have water tight hatches going below and always close them when it gets rough. We have four drains in the cabin floor, the ones in front of each cabin door are recessed into the floor with teak grate on top. The recess is quite large 8" x 24" at least 8" deep.

If the GB55 does not have water tight hatches and they were stopped with sails and mast in water (brakes on) I could see quite a bit of water comming on board, as well as flooding the hulls. Are the engine compartments water tight? Many interesting scenarios.

Can't wait to hear what the word is on Thursday at the show. I am still confident and impressed with Gunboat. The only thing that makes everyone have doubts is the hull number.

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Old 09-02-2015, 23:07   #276
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Re: GUNBOAT Dismasting

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Very well put!

I have no reason to doubt that they were hit with a 70 mph gust, if that's what their official story turns out to be, or a combination of a 70 mph gust at the same instant as a large wave, I have no reason to doubt anyone who was there. In addition, I can understand that line of thinking you outlined, it kind of comes with the territory and advanced technology.

What I'm kind of curious about is perhaps carbon fiber isn't really the correct material for a mast. I've seen very thin CF body panels that were pretty flexible, and thicker panels that were very rigid. The question is, would it be better to design the mast with more give, or use it in conjunction with other materials so it has more give?

I truly have no idea, thus I'd welcome comments from those who do know more.
Carbon's primary choice as a composite is its very high specific stiffness. The primary tradeoff
is its poor relative toughness (ability to absorb energy) compared to kevlar and fibreglass.

Carbon is, in general engineering terms, a good choice where high stiffness and light weight is desired. Carbon is generally a poor choice when toughness is desired. (the ability to absorb energy correlates well with survivability)

In motorsports, my background, carbon only components are lifed and are disposed of regularly. It rarely fails gracefully.

As an engineer I'd rarely specify carbon in applications that need durability and graceful failure modes. Often its chosen because it looks sexier than the alternatives.

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Old 10-02-2015, 02:04   #277
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Re: GUNBOAT Dismasting

Gunboats and the general buzz surrounding them remind me of when the first batch of Wallys showed up on the Med circuit. Wally would have you believe that you could race like a maxi, sail single handed if desired and go blue water...all in the luxury of a chic minimalistic yacht with an interior based on a trendy City apartment...

Well it only too a couple of years before these boats were sussed. The boats are incredibly badly built. Virtually every boat suffered delam on the hulls. One sank, a couple burnt, one after sailing from the Med to the Caribbean had her pro crew threaten to resign unless the boat returned to the Med on a ship... Winches have been torn off the deck, masts have come down.Wallys leak, rattle and after a season of racing quite literally fall apart...but they look pretty damn sexy and the Wally scene is fun, glamourous and quite competitive so the boats have found a niche for themselves racing in the summer followed by winters of desperate yard work.

Gunboat would have you believe that you can cruise around the world at multihull race boat speeds in safety and in luxury. PJ has claimed GB have found the ultimate equation balancing performance and safety, even claiming that at 70 knots all you need do is drop the sails, lift the boards and basically make yourself some hot chocolate as the boat slides side ways and is unsinkable...

You cannot have it all...despite what the builders and their marketing departments tell you...
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Old 10-02-2015, 04:58   #278
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Re: GUNBOAT Dismasting

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Originally Posted by Jim Cate View Post
Ya know, I have to agree with this. I'd even question calling them passage makers!

Fast, fun, exciting, attractive in appearance (by cat standards)... they are terrific, but from a genre as yet unnamed (AFAIK)... not cruiser, not racer, not voyager... what the hell are they, anyhow?

And I too hope for her recovery, and (with less hope of realization) full disclosure of what happened.

Jim
That view is a bit unfair. Gunboats have all it takes to live aboard on anchorage and to cruise extensively. I believe the reason you don't see them there often has to do with the money they cost and the lifestyle of owners: They are millionaires and have millionaires wives and kids that prefer to eat at luxurious gourmet restaurants and enjoy a luxurious marina with the associated social life.

Give it time and when their price comes to affordable levels I am quite sure you will see them on anchorages as you see already some less expensive big fast catamarans, like Outremer, for instance.
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Old 10-02-2015, 05:27   #279
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Re: GUNBOAT Dismasting

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Doesn't seem to stop Boston Whaler, along with many others.
Or Molly Brown....

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.............................

This doesn't mean they are not sexy boats worthy of being swooned over. But cruisers? Absolutely not. Please do not insult real cruisers by use of that term...

p.s. - I'm available to be a starting helmsman. Racing resume available upon request.

2 Hulls Dave
Or beverage gopher/cheese slicer...
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Old 10-02-2015, 07:39   #280
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Re: GUNBOAT Dismasting

There have been many threads about the definition of what a cruiser or a cruising boat is. The first thing I consider is where the cruising will take place. Next is the level of accommodation needed. People have cruised the Bahamas in Hobie cats with no grills hanging off the back while others require bigger more comfortable boats.

Bottom line for me is a lot of boats and folks meet my definition of cruisers including Gunboats.

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Old 10-02-2015, 08:13   #281
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Re: GUNBOAT Dismasting

The reason you don't ever see them cruising much is there aren't many built. Is the total run for all GB models combined less than 30?
Didn't Tribe make it from So. Africa to Oz? And all the other boats are pretty far from their point of manufacture. That is the definition of cruising and passage making.
I've had a 34' motorhome and when we were out in it we called it camping (everyone does). Last summer I was camping in a $200 tent in the Beartooth Wilderness in Montana. I was covered in sweat, sunscreen and bugspray for 4 days but had a great time. It's the same but different.

Those mountain goats in my avatar are from that trip. They were 6' feet away.
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Old 10-02-2015, 08:15   #282
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Re: GUNBOAT Dismasting

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In reality, these boats are not cruisers. I have never seen one in a cruiser anchorage with a smoking grill hanging off the stern, fishing rods in rod holders, and laundry on the lifelines and I've been in a lot of anchorages where real cruisers are getting together for happy hours and pot lucks. I've seen them anchored - or preferably docked - in St. Maarten waiting for the Heineken Regatta and in their home harbors, but never in a remote cruiser's anchorage with actual cruisers aboard having a sundowner. Never. Rather, these are toys for affluent day sailors and wanna be international racers - delivered from location to location by hired crews. This doesn't mean they are not sexy boats worthy of being swooned over. But cruisers? Absolutely not. Please do not insult real cruisers by use of that term...

2 Hulls Dave
Well, if having a barbeque clamped to the stern rail, and routine attendance at potlucks are among the basic requirements to be certified as a "Real Cruiser", looks like I'm not gonna make the grade, either...

;-))





Certainly, the Gunboat 55 does not tick all the boxes of what most of us probably view as a 'Cruising Boat'... CRUISING WORLD made it quite clear that among the 3 finalists in the Cruising Multihull category of their BOTY contest, each boat served entirely different purposes... Just as there are as many different types of 'cruising', as there are boats that might fit one's particular definition of what that may be...

But I think Polux' point re the demographic these boats appeal to is well taken, there's no real reason these boats are not capable of doing the sort of cruising many of us do... Just because Range Rovers are primarily used for chores like shuttling kids to and from soccer practice, doesn't mean they're not capable of going most anywhere one might wish to take one... ;-)

Spending a winter in the Bahamas on a Gunboat 55 might be about as close to dying and going to Heaven as I can imagine... Certainly wouldn't be my first choice on which to weather a gale off Hatteras in late January, however...

:-)






Nor, would the latest and greatest Beneteau SenseBoat, for that matter... Oh, well - there's barely a spot for a barbeque on those puny stern rails, anyway... ;-)



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Old 10-02-2015, 08:49   #283
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Re: GUNBOAT Dismasting

I guess, I am just old fashioned or whatever, but the sight of these wide open transoms give me the heeby jeebies. All I can visualize is a wave crashing into them and flooding the vessel.
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Old 10-02-2015, 08:53   #284
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Re: GUNBOAT Dismasting

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I guess, I am just old fashioned or whatever, but the sight of these wide open transoms give me the heeby jeebies. All I can visualize is a wave crashing into them and flooding the vessel.
Are you saying it should be named no Sense or perhaps non Sense.
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Old 10-02-2015, 08:58   #285
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Re: GUNBOAT Dismasting

I am saying, I would not sleep very well with that type of configuration. It is just not for me.
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