Gunboat Bankruptcy

[Donkey]

Originally Posted by Skip JayR

A nice video showing when a 66 foot Cat hull comes out of the mold.
https://www.facebook.com/HHCatamaran...type=2&theater

Enough pace for at least 4 hulls....

This is a typically size of a production hall a boat builder has. Regularly he has 2-3 halls of that size parallal running as you cant have the different segments, e.g. wood storage or textiles for interieurs in the same hall because of dirt and dust.

Thankyou so much for that link.

So some cursory look through their page. HH66 #1 had the first carbon laid in an Oct 31, 2014 post. They were still painting one month ago and are currently laying up dagger boards before the installation process begins.

You should call them as clearly they are taking to long. They desperately need you help. After all, you have worked in a wharf.

BTW have a look at the size of the team below. As I said, you have no idea of the hours involved, or maybe they are sitting around eating hamburgers.

[Donkey]

Originally Posted by Donkey

You have unwittingly proved my point. Check out the size of that facility and that is only for four. You state five or six are needed. I do love the internet warriors who move the goal posts to suit.

Seeing as the business plan and cashflow are not so easy. Perhaps just work out for me the cost to buy such a facility and fit it out accordingly! Or even to lease and fit out in someone else's property.

Gunboats in a hole so surely you could fill the void. It is all so cheap and easy. You only need a few carpenters. Please show us how it should be done properly.

My business while different manufacturing is not far removed from yacht building. I work on the model you say cannot work. Over 150 workers but only three employees. I wish you had told me ten years ago it could not work this way.

You have no understanding of the complexities, borrowing costs, overheads and continuity of work headaches for such a business model. How many French builders have gone bankrupt and how many are supported by government subsidies.

I am reminded of something my father always said. Never argue with a fool. They will drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.

I'll save you the effort. The HH facility cost over 50 million USD. Should have bought one myself. Maybe tomorrow.

[Skip JayR]

Originally Posted by Donkey

I'll save you the effort. The HH facility cost over 50 million USD. Should have bought one myself. Maybe tomorrow.

So what ??? If one want build Gunboats and become profitable he has to take such huge money in hands... a very normal process. You think you can build up a dockyard with some hundred thousand US dollars as capital ?

Factoring is cost and work intensive. So it is.... there is no way around. Why you think, that GB first went to China ? To reduce the labour/personal costs, of course.

If one is scared of such sums of higher investments, he should look for another branch. its risky business. And you cannot re-finance it, selling 20 or 21 boats in 15 years... impossible. What means bankrupcy ??? Its "lack of liquidity". Why no liquiidty, becaues ther is no net profit in the bank account.

No bank will finance Peter (anymore) looking at his slow business progress... its not a new company, already 14 years he is working on establishing this brand in the market. So there is only one choise: Take the big money in hands with strong partners (delivered by Venture Capital specialists), then push the technical infrastracture which must be built and qualify all these huge numbers of workers. And then sell the boats worldwide via an internationally sales distribution structure.

But so Peter didnt ! Or maybe I missed a public notice that he got a bigger investor over last years and meanwhile burnt all that money ???

[Donkey]

Rubbish! Small manufacturers co-exist with large ones. There is not one model or one way forward.

Spoken like someone with no skin in the game. Just lash out 50 big ones. Buy two! Why not!

I am out. You ignorance is dumbfounding.

[CarlF]

Another victory for the lawyers

We know of one law suit (GB against the Chinese builder). They have countersued.

It always goes about the same. A good business hits a bad spot. In even the best group of owners, creditors, and suppliers, one or two will eventually get worried. Their lawyers will advise that it doesn't matter that Peter is a smart and decent guy doing his best in a very tough industry. And it doesn't matter that the creditors usually gets more if the company avoids bankruptcy.

Someone panics. Then everyone panics. And then the lawyers take over.

[Skip JayR]

Originally Posted by CarlF

Someone panics. Then everyone panics. And then the lawyers take over.

Shall I proceed and write on this story book ? - After the lawyers have taken over they burn all the rest of money by huge bills. In worst case, they stop in midth a court trial, because the clients had to declair themselfs (privately) brankrupcy because not anymore being able to pay further on the new bills.

Yes, Lawyers like to hunt for their own profit... their mentality mostly isnt driven by the motive that the own clients experience fair justice.

[zboss]

Any successful business with a great product that has not declared bankruptcy at some point is not managing their business right and is throwing money out the door

With that said, if Gunboat cannot get on the America's cup bandwagon in some form, or get out there winning the toughest race on earth I fail to see how they can maintain a compelling business proposition for someone that wants a go fast cruising boat. If you are a winner you must stay on top because there is no getting back on top once you are pushed off.

[beauris]

Originally Posted by Cottontop

Please tell me you're European. If people in the USA are starting to think like this then all is lost.

when did being european started to be demeaning? do you realize what you're writing? i am extremely shocked by what you are implying. and by the way you are responsible for what you write , being american is not a valid excuse ;op ( couldn t help it sorry)

[leftbrainstuff]

Originally Posted by SVNeko

Well, didn't see this sad news coming.

Gunboat Files for Bankruptcy >> Scuttlebutt Sailing News

Lets move the manufacturing to china to cut costs. What could possibly go wrong...

A classic case of over promise and under deliver with claims like 'unsinkable' and 'outrun storms'.

Reminds me of the dilemmas facing MG, TVR and countless other niche auto manufacturers over the years.

Very few make money out of building prototypes. How do you make a small fortune out of building yachts? Start with a large one.

Our Liberty 458 is one of only 31. That company, like so many other yacht builders, disappeared. But we're left with a great boat.

I'm sure we'll keep seeing Gunboats on the water.

Sent from my SM-N900T using Cruisers Sailing Forum mobile app

[leftbrainstuff]

Originally Posted by Skip JayR

Feel free to think what you like to think....



I am on contact with HC... of course they like to sell their foil kits to other catamarans. They would be stupid not to do so.



I heard of 2.5 mio. in total. Maybe if they start a small series (for now they are building in Netherlands G4 No. 2 with launch in March 2017) they might bring down the costs.



Thats little bit wrong... I am not a foil expert, but what I have learnt from the HC guys directly that the foils have a range of performance and a flexible trimming unit, vertically and horizontally. It does not need a "single built version".
Mostly what counts is the weight. As this is the job of the foils to do: bringing uplift. E.g. for avoiding pitching you can take a foiled T-Rudder seperately.

The G4 is around 2.5 tons. So if you have another 40 footer with same weight roughly, it might work quickly to use the same foils of the Gunboat. More then it needs adaption of the rigging and the amas to bear the different stresses and loads around the foil cases. But thats not the job of the HC guys as herefor they have some partners externally to calculate sails plan, mast dimensions given by righting moments etc. ...

Reminds me of the kids who put a big carbon wing and hood on (insert name of production car here)

Sent from my SM-N900T using Cruisers Sailing Forum mobile app

[leftbrainstuff]

Originally Posted by Stumble

It is assumed in a large build like a GB that there is a performance bond taken out with the construction contract. I would be suprizes if any of the new owners gets hammered too bad. Unless they buy back unfinished hulls and try to finish the boat themselves.


But so far GB is restructuring, i.e. shedding debt, not closing down. The first goal in a restructuring is keeping product going out the door.

Smart buyers will negotiate protection and penalty clauses.

I wouldnt hold my breathe on a performance bond being exercisible now they're in bankruptcy protection.

Sent from my SM-N900T using Cruisers Sailing Forum mobile app

[Redreuben]

Anybody who can make a living from pleasure boat owners has my total respect, working for several yacht builders and later a repairer I have witnessed first hand the mercenary and ethically bankrupt behaviour of too many boat owners. I left the industry after chasing a boat owner 600 ks up the coast after he did a runner.
It's funny many builders bemoan the customer who wants European quality at a Chinese price. You gets what you pays for but somehow even smart information rich people can't see that. I now ply my skills in the housing industry, more essential seems to equal more ethical when it comes to paying the little guy.
Rant over.

[weavis]

Originally Posted by Donkey

BTW have a look at the size of the team below. As I said, you have no idea of the hours involved, or maybe they are sitting around eating hamburgers.

The most important question though is: Who's hamburgers are they eating and do they deliver?

[weavis]

Originally Posted by Skip JayR

So what ??? If one want build Gunboats and become profitable he has to take such huge money in hands... a very normal process. You think you can build up a dockyard with some hundred thousand US dollars as capital ?

Factoring is cost and work intensive. So it is.... there is no way around. Why you think, that GB first went to China ? To reduce the labour/personal costs, of course.

If one is scared of such sums of higher investments, he should look for another branch. its risky business. And you cannot re-finance it, selling 20 or 21 boats in 15 years... impossible. What means bankrupcy ??? Its "lack of liquidity". Why no liquiidty, becaues ther is no net profit in the bank account.

No bank will finance Peter (anymore) looking at his slow business progress... its not a new company, already 14 years he is working on establishing this brand in the market. So there is only one choise: Take the big money in hands with strong partners (delivered by Venture Capital specialists), then push the technical infrastracture which must be built and qualify all these huge numbers of workers. And then sell the boats worldwide via an internationally sales distribution structure.

But so Peter didnt ! Or maybe I missed a public notice that he got a bigger investor over last years and meanwhile burnt all that money ???

Keeping your privacy intact, would you kindly tell us your business expertise and whether or not you run or have run a corporation in excess of $10M a year turnover and 100 employees as CEO or COO ?

[Polux]

Originally Posted by weavis

Keeping your privacy intact, would you kindly tell us your business expertise and whether or not you run or have run a corporation in excess of $10M a year turnover and 100 employees as CEO or COO ?

I disagree with some posts that JayR has posted, but the last one seems just good sense to me and it is not needed to have rum a corporation to have an idea of how things are done. A knowledge of yacht business will be enough.

Fact is that to run a small family type of Yacht business, making very few boats a year it is not necessary a big initial investment. The boats typically will have high quality and will be expensive.

If one wants to expand from that to a medium production business, still offering high quality boats in bigger quantities at lower prices, than a very big investment is needed. That was what Gunboat was trying to do and it was not the first company that went down trying that difficult passage from a a family business to a corporate one.