Cruisers Forum
 


Join CruisersForum Today

Reply
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 19-11-2015, 15:53   #31
Registered User

Join Date: Feb 2014
Posts: 72
Re: Gunboat Bankruptcy

Skip JayR,

That is the point you have missed Gunboat is not a public company it’s actually a small privately held company solely owned by Peter. There is no “board” they are not a production boat builder.

Gunboat has not designed any of its boats. Melvin and Morelli designed the 48,62,66,90 and Nigel Iren’s the 55, 60 and 78 and of course Holland composites/DNA designed the G4.

There has been no wind channel, water tank prototypes that’s not how it’s done in most yacht design these days.

Now one thing you were correct on is that they did not focus enough on individual series of boats the cost to build the molds/tooling for each one is HUGE. To spread themselves so thin really hurt them.

From what I understand Gunboat does not have possession/ownership of the molds/tooling the ship yards they screwed over in South Africa and China do.

So they lost the molds/tooling for everything but the 55 and the G4

it's not fair to compare them to a production builder like Fountaine Pajot that most of its boats are sold to charter companies. Gunboat is/was more of a Custom boutique builder
__________________

__________________
Geekatlrg is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19-11-2015, 16:49   #32
Registered User
 
Skip JayR's Avatar

Join Date: Jul 2015
Location: see https://trienthusiasts.wordpress.com/
Boat: still looking for the right Tri
Posts: 430
Re: Gunboat Bankruptcy

Quote:
Originally Posted by Geekatlrg View Post
Gunboat has not designed any of its boats. Melvin and Morelli designed the 48,62,66,90 and Nigel Iren’s the 55, 60 and 78 and of course Holland composites/DNA designed the G4.

From what I understand Gunboat does not have possession/ownership of the molds/tooling the ship yards they screwed over in South Africa and China do.

So they lost the molds/tooling for everything but the 55 and the G4
intellectual propoerty of design owned by the designers having their own companies, ownership of moulds by warfts. Thats sounds really bad.

So what did Peter own ? In princips nothing.

Maybe he owned the "brand name" as "tradmark". But even here I have my doubts, as he cannot claim a commonly used term (as nobody else in the world). We remember, that "Gunboat" already was created long time ago... bloody wars in Europe...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gunboat
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gunboat_War
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gunboat_diplomacy

Nobody can registrate a trademark with the name "chair" or "table", as it is commonly used vocabularly. Such words are always in the common ownership of a whole society/nation.

I suppose Peter had to pay a kind of licence fee to get the copy-right for using the design exclusively.

Summary: Own substance as company (by own competences) is very low. Little bit sales structure and the right to distribute the boats exclusively. Not a lot... thin ice Peter was walking on so long.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Geekatlrg View Post
Now one thing you were correct on is that they did not focus enough on individual series of boats the cost to build the molds/tooling for each one is HUGE. To spread themselves so thin really hurt them.
We may not forget, how this kind of luxury business works...

Wealthy people have their networks, they socialize... and owners of million expensive catamarans invite their business clients, partners and close friends to have some chily times on board as "VIP persons".
If a business man is talking in his rotary club and as member of industrial and professional associations about his "new toy"he spreads out the personally and positive experiences as new yacht owner.

The best propaganda is "mouth to mouth"... with some good reportages in Yacht magazines and nice advertising clips.
__________________

__________________
Skip JayR is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19-11-2015, 17:36   #33
Registered User

Join Date: Feb 2014
Posts: 72
Re: Gunboat Bankruptcy

Gunboat politics aside

If I could somehow justify spending 4 million on a sailboat. I would love to have a GB66
I will give Peter some credit for me personally Gunboat changed the way I looked at catamarans.
__________________
Geekatlrg is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19-11-2015, 23:26   #34
Registered User

Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 37
Re: Gunboat Bankruptcy

SkipJayR

Actually, I am amazed they could build one every 8.5 months.

By your arithmetic, all small specialty house builders must be about to go out of business because they are not building 100 plus units a year like the big players.

You know nothing of their business model or the challenges of their business. You state minimum yearly units to break even. Please, on what basis?

They are awesome boats. I hope this is not the end of Gunboat.

Ignore indeed.
__________________
I have a Dragon and I'm not afraid to use it...I'm a Donkey on the edge.
Donkey is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19-11-2015, 23:55   #35
Registered User

Join Date: Nov 2015
Location: Singapore
Boat: Seawind 1160 Lite
Posts: 253
Re: Gunboat Bankruptcy

Quote:
Originally Posted by Donkey View Post
SkipJayR

Actually, I am amazed they could build one every 8.5 months.

By your arithmetic, all small specialty house builders must be about to go out of business because they are not building 100 plus units a year like the big players.

You know nothing of their business model or the challenges of their business. You state minimum yearly units to break even. Please, on what basis?

They are awesome boats. I hope this is not the end of Gunboat.

Ignore indeed.
SkipJay obviously has his own agenda he is chasing on this forum,
Best to see what actual owners say,

Quote below from Chris who recently post on SA,
Just sold his 55 , it was 3 year build time


#27 Chapter 11 for Gunboat: post #27 Chris Groobey
Newbie

Members
Pip
1 posts
Location:Annapolis
Posted 18 November 2015 - 08:47 PM
Starting a new account and using my real name for this post, writing as the owner of GB 55-03 Toccata. Have been off-line for a while but wanted to correct a few statements made on this and other threads. First, a post on another thread said we had returned our boat to Gunboat and demanded our money back over the summer. This is not correct. We are still the owners of the boat and we never demanded our money back. Yes, the boat is for sale. This is due to our making a mistake in selecting the best boat for what we want to do over the next few years. Basically my wife and I saved up some money and quit our jobs to go sailing for a few years. We only have so much money and time to do what we want to do. 55-03 is an awesome boat and everyone who knows us knows we had a great time on her, both racing and cruising, earlier this year. But in the end we decided the Gunboat (or any sailboat) was not the right boat for us and so we bought a used FPB 64 powerboat to continue our adventures. The 55 is a great boat and we miss her (and sailing generally) but moving to a larger powerboat was the right thing for us to do for now. We still have lots of friends in the Gunboat family, sail with them when we can and hope one day to own a Gunboat again. There's nothing like a Gunboat, no matter what model it is.

As for Peter and the Gunboat team, we went through a three-year build process with them and have been owners for ten months now. We have never known a better group of people and they have never let us down. Peter and the team have fixed every warranty item on the boat since delivery, frequently by flying people in to wherever we were at the time, and she is better than new in every way. We could not have asked for more and I know of no other builder that would have done the same for its owners, especially when facing other challenges. So we aren't selling the boat because she is a lemon, or because Peter let us down, but because, for better or worse, it's just not the right boat for us, at least not right now (note to future buyer: call us before you sell her to anyone else).

We are as crushed as anyone that Gunboat is filing. Not as owners, but as people who like and respect everyone who works (and worked) for Gunboat and anyone who will be hurt by the filing. Yes, it has been coming for a long time, and yes, everyone here could have done a better job than Peter in running the company and making it a huge success (sarcasm, obviously). But we are pulling for them and believe they will come out of this stronger and better than ever. We've spoken with Peter and others in the company this morning and everyone is pressing ahead, with a good plan for the next year in place. Why everyone else on this site is not also pulling for them is beyond me.

In any event, don't use our selling 55-03 as an indictment of the company or its people, as they've done everything right by us.
__________________
Andrew Grace is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20-11-2015, 02:44   #36
Sos
Registered User

Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: UK
Boat: Woods Flica catamaran
Posts: 160
Re: Gunboat Bankruptcy

I don't know what chapter 11 is or how it works but it sounds like Gunboat should recover, however what happens to all the hard working suppliers / creditors that are going to lose out?
__________________
Sos is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20-11-2015, 06:00   #37
Registered User
 
UNCIVILIZED's Avatar

Join Date: Jun 2014
Location: Up the mast, looking for clean wind.
Boat: Currently Shopping, & Heavily in LUST!
Posts: 5,629
Re: Gunboat Bankruptcy

I can't say that I've followed the Gunboat story closely. And the reason for my tuning out to GB is that from the start, it's been a lot of hot air & PR hype, primarily. Kind of like you see amongst teenagers, & "the cool crowd" sort of mentality.

AKA, not really rocket science type new stuff, sailing wise. Aside from a number of spectacularly bad examples of poor engineering & building, that is. Too which they freely admitted (SIC).
Add the two together, coupled with the price of the boats, & a pretty dang small marketing audience... and you get a predictably bad outcome. Which makes it pretty tough to feel bad for them from where I sit.
__________________

The Uncommon Thing, The Hard Thing, The Important Thing (in Life): Making Promises to Yourself, And Keeping Them.
UNCIVILIZED is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20-11-2015, 06:25   #38
Registered User

Join Date: Feb 2014
Posts: 72
Re: Gunboat Bankruptcy

here is a well written article on the subject Gunboat International files for bankruptcy protection
__________________
Geekatlrg is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20-11-2015, 11:18   #39
Senior Cruiser

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: Anacortes
Boat: previous - Whitby 42 new - Goldenwave 44
Posts: 1,735
Re: Gunboat Bankruptcy

I have no axes to grind here. I will never afford a Gunboat or any of its competition. I don't personally know any of the players. I am very sorry for the impact on the Carolina work force, as, regardless of what happens will be negatively affected to some degree.

I live in a town which has, and has had, many boat builders. I have worked for some boat builders. I have worked for several startup companies. Boat building as a business is extraordinarily hard to get in to - and make money. It is hard for some visionaries to go from limited production to bigger production - sometimes. It is hard for small companies to scale up to larger ones - sometimes. Economies can change and it is hard to react to those - sometimes. The history of boatbuilding here is a litany of ex-companies and laid off workers.

The end result is that the odds against a startup like Gunboats to make it are huge. They have done well to get where they did. It is not unusual for major mistakes to be made by companies like them who are trying to transition from limited "small" boutique production to larger. Some times they never recover. Sometimes they need to recognize the expertise required and evolve management as the production and economic environment changes.

I wish them well in reorganizing and making a go of it. I have seen some similarities from my limited readings about GB though that mimic others I have seen first hand. Sometimes the visionary is not the right person to carry it to the next stage. GB may make it but no one should underestimate how hard it will be, and there seem to be some patterns here that are not unusual for growing companies. Hope they make it. The G4 was just selected by Sail Magazine as one of the best boats for 2016, along with all the other kudos they have garnered.
__________________
exMaggieDrum is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20-11-2015, 12:51   #40
Registered User
 
Skip JayR's Avatar

Join Date: Jul 2015
Location: see https://trienthusiasts.wordpress.com/
Boat: still looking for the right Tri
Posts: 430
Re: Gunboat Bankruptcy

Quote:
Originally Posted by Donkey View Post
Actually, I am amazed they could build one every 8.5 months. By your arithmetic, all small specialty house builders must be about to go out of business because they are not building 100 plus units a year like the big players.
I have worked in a boat wharf, Donkey. So I know the procedures from inside.

A boat building company has specialists. There is no way around. You have a big mix of handcraftsmen to bring all together, from interieur to deckslayout, engine and hull building.

An Electrician cannot build the hull, as he cannot become an (epoxy) composite specialist. An upholsterer cannot be an electrician, a carpenter cannot be an upholsterer, a varnisher cannot be a carpenter, a welder cannot be a varnisher etc. etc. etc. ...

It is not very smart by the management if you do 100% outsourcing in the way of "just in time production", that's stupidity. Because the dependency from external services is too risky. - As then you cannot build up the knowledge which is urgent as the "inhouse competences" are the real substance of a boat building company... or every other corporation. A company needs a minimum size of inhouse team to work 40 hours / week, 4 weeks per month.. .with all the social aspects aside having enough reserves, e.g. employees want have holidays or can become sick.

So you need a small team, e.g. two electricians, 3 carpenters, 2 varnishers, 3-4 epoxy / composite specialists etc. ... Such a bunch of folks wants and needs work, daily from morning to evening. They cannot sit around 50% of the day eating Hamburgers and watching TV (symbolically spoken).

There are already many parts outsourced, naturally e.g. mast building, rudder specialists, foils, running rigging, sails, shrouts, propellers, engines, winch systems, navigation equipment etc. ... so you need a minimum of "inhouse competence", e.g. hull building and interieur design.

You cannot pay a carpenter full time over 8.5 months for one single boat, as there isnt so much work to do on one single boat... In consequences a boat yard must produce parallel different boats, only then you can calculate the personal staff costs realistically.

Or do you want tell me, that for little bit "mahagoni deck", some chairs and galley boards in the saloon a carpenter needs 8.5 months to produce all ?

Thats nonsense... nowadays we have CNC controlled mashines (e.g. miling). All can be done more quickly than 30-40 years ago. And the modern glue materials can be processed very quickly, too... as the hardening doesnt take 24-48 hours, mostly.

Some parts need time, not to forget, e.g. painting. If you put 10 layers of a varnished wood this needs time for drying, too. So paying a varnisher full time needs different boats to work parallel on.

It does not need big series, but having 5-6 boats parallel in work on 2-3 productoin lines/streets is something very normal.
__________________
Skip JayR is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20-11-2015, 13:07   #41
Moderator
 
Dockhead's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Cowes (Winter), Baltic (Summer) (the boat!); somewhere in the air (me!)
Boat: Cutter-Rigged Moody 54
Posts: 19,748
Re: Gunboat Bankruptcy

Quote:
Originally Posted by Travis McGee View Post
Kudos to Peter Johnstone for "daring big."

Sometimes giants run too fast, trip, and fall hard ... and then the pygmies have a good laugh. But the giant is still a giant, and the pygmies are still pygmies.

After the dust settles, I'd love hear his frank thoughts on the Chinese outsourcing debacle, and any larger lessons found there. There is probably a book in there, if he wants to write it, I'll read it.

One thing I feel pretty sure of is that Peter will be back, smarter than ever, having incorporated many hard lessons.
Maybe not all that relevant to the discussion, but I thought his announcement about the bankruptcy was pretty classy, ending with what sounded like a pretty sincere apology to the suppliers and subcontractors who will be screwed. That doesn't unscrew them of course, but how many entrepreneurs in such a situation even acknowledge the harm they've done to others?

Compare and contrast to that odious character (what was his name) making that cat, the first production model of which fell apart on an ill-timed trip to Bermuda, and blamed his own professional skipper and everyone in the world, except himself, for what was obviously just poor engineering.

I think Gunboats are awfully cool boats. Risks are greater in such a boat, but that is the nature of the beast -- Lamborghini compared to a Ford. Hope they'll sort things out soon and fix their mistakes. And go at least some ways towards making their suppliers and subcontractors whole, with new orders.
__________________
"Parce que je suis heureux en mer, et peut-Ítre pour sauver mon ame. . . "
Dockhead is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20-11-2015, 14:33   #42
Registered User

Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 37
Re: Gunboat Bankruptcy

Quote:
Originally Posted by Skip JayR View Post
I have worked in a boat wharf, Donkey. So I know the procedures from inside.

A boat building company has specialists. There is no way around. You have a big mix of handcraftsmen to bring all together, from interieur to deckslayout, engine and hull building.

An Electrician cannot build the hull, as he cannot become an (epoxy) composite specialist. An upholsterer cannot be an electrician, a carpenter cannot be an upholsterer, a varnisher cannot be a carpenter, a welder cannot be a varnisher etc. etc. etc. ...

It is not very smart by the management if you do 100% outsourcing in the way of "just in time production", that's stupidity. Because the dependency from external services is too risky. - As then you cannot build up the knowledge which is urgent as the "inhouse competences" are the real substance of a boat building company... or every other corporation. A company needs a minimum size of inhouse team to work 40 hours / week, 4 weeks per month.. .with all the social aspects aside having enough reserves, e.g. employees want have holidays or can become sick.

So you need a small team, e.g. two electricians, 3 carpenters, 2 varnishers, 3-4 epoxy / composite specialists etc. ... Such a bunch of folks wants and needs work, daily from morning to evening. They cannot sit around 50% of the day eating Hamburgers and watching TV (symbolically spoken).

There are already many parts outsourced, naturally e.g. mast building, rudder specialists, foils, running rigging, sails, shrouts, propellers, engines, winch systems, navigation equipment etc. ... so you need a minimum of "inhouse competence", e.g. hull building and interieur design.

You cannot pay a carpenter full time over 8.5 months for one single boat, as there isnt so much work to do on one single boat... In consequences a boat yard must produce parallel different boats, only then you can calculate the personal staff costs realistically.

Or do you want tell me, that for little bit "mahagoni deck", some chairs and galley boards in the saloon a carpenter needs 8.5 months to produce all ?

Thats nonsense... nowadays we have CNC controlled mashines (e.g. miling). All can be done more quickly than 30-40 years ago. And the modern glue materials can be processed very quickly, too... as the hardening doesnt take 24-48 hours, mostly.

Some parts need time, not to forget, e.g. painting. If you put 10 layers of a varnished wood this needs time for drying, too. So paying a varnisher full time needs different boats to work parallel on.

It does not need big series, but having 5-6 boats parallel in work on 2-3 productoin lines/streets is something very normal.
Yep, and I've worked as a shepherd. Your point would be what? If it is all so easy, running up a business plan and a cashflow forecast should be a treat. Please post here

I'm sure you are right. All that sets the Gunboats apart is a piece of mahogany.

The biggest cost on these boats is the labour. You vastly underestimate the number of hours to build such a boat.

I do not know what your agenda is or why you want to lay into someone who has added much to yachting and has reportedly had a decent go. I do know that you are ignorant to the true challenges of running a business. Five to six in parallel! How big a shed would you need? Overheads! Management! The challenge of keeping work up to such a machine!

Please, Take this stuff on the road. Try the fish. I'm here all week.
__________________
I have a Dragon and I'm not afraid to use it...I'm a Donkey on the edge.
Donkey is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20-11-2015, 14:48   #43
Registered User
 
Skip JayR's Avatar

Join Date: Jul 2015
Location: see https://trienthusiasts.wordpress.com/
Boat: still looking for the right Tri
Posts: 430
Re: Gunboat Bankruptcy

Quote:
Originally Posted by Andrew Grace View Post
SkipJay obviously has his own agenda he is chasing on this forum
What you intend to imply on me ?

I never said, that GB is a trashy boat. But with all the infos coming accross one's path - good and bad news - its a normal process to understand. At least its an attempt to get an understanding.

I am not an insider. Why should I ? I have my own opinions about what I see based on the picture which is presented to me. Its not my duty to do the job of Peter. Its in the hands of a manager to care for his own brand in public and deliver by a well balanced PR work all the datas and facts.

If a boat builder would need 3 years for building a yacht he should look for another job. Read carefully ! - I say "boat builder".

No doubt about, that a boat project can take 3 years from the first idea to the christening. But this is not what we are talking here about. GB is in the market with a range of boats in the size of 40 ft up to 90ft. So we cant talk about single built boats; its semi-customized boat building.

A boat project nowadays can be done in 1.5-2 years maximum, from first scratch, computer simulations by the designer to the "keel laying" and first test trials. We dont live in times anymore where designers did hand drawings.

The boat building process itself is much shorter, 6 weeks to 3 months for a bigger multihull (infusion); interieur, mast + rigging + sail making another 2-3 months.

Here a nice example how HH Catamarans is building a 55 footer with CNC.... no more many weeks of modelling.
https://www.facebook.com/HHCatamaran...type=2&theater
__________________
Skip JayR is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20-11-2015, 14:56   #44
Registered User
 
Skip JayR's Avatar

Join Date: Jul 2015
Location: see https://trienthusiasts.wordpress.com/
Boat: still looking for the right Tri
Posts: 430
Re: Gunboat Bankruptcy

Quote:
Originally Posted by Donkey View Post
Five to six in parallel! How big a shed would you need? Overheads! Management! The challenge of keeping work up to such a machine!
A nice video showing when a 66 foot Cat hull comes out of the mold.
https://www.facebook.com/HHCatamaran...type=2&theater

Enough pace for at least 4 hulls....

This is a typically size of a production hall a boat builder has. Regularly he has 2-3 halls of that size parallal running as you cant have the different segments, e.g. wood storage or textiles for interieurs in the same hall because of dirt and dust.
__________________
Skip JayR is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20-11-2015, 15:29   #45
Registered User

Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 37
Re: Gunboat Bankruptcy

You have unwittingly proved my point. Check out the size of that facility and that is only for four. You state five or six are needed. I do love the internet warriors who move the goal posts to suit.

Seeing as the business plan and cashflow are not so easy. Perhaps just work out for me the cost to buy such a facility and fit it out accordingly! Or even to lease and fit out in someone else's property.

Gunboats in a hole so surely you could fill the void. It is all so cheap and easy. You only need a few carpenters. Please show us how it should be done properly.

My business while different manufacturing is not far removed from yacht building. I work on the model you say cannot work. Over 150 workers but only three employees. I wish you had told me ten years ago it could not work this way.

You have no understanding of the complexities, borrowing costs, overheads and continuity of work headaches for such a business model. How many French builders have gone bankrupt and how many are supported by government subsidies.

I am reminded of something my father always said. Never argue with a fool. They will drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.
__________________

__________________
I have a Dragon and I'm not afraid to use it...I'm a Donkey on the edge.
Donkey is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Givens Life Rafts Filed for Bankruptcy chrisjs Health, Safety & Related Gear 45 16-12-2013 17:43
Gunboat 62 Blows Doors Off Reichel-Pugh 80 David M Multihull Sailboats 150 16-05-2009 13:38
Boaters World (Ritz) Bankruptcy S/V Elusive Dollars & Cents 32 09-04-2009 05:22
Gunboat CNN video Tnflakbait Multihull Sailboats 77 06-04-2008 08:55



Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -7. The time now is 12:11.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.