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Old 19-11-2015, 08:36   #16
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Re: Gunboat Bankruptcy

Its never good - things like this, but when I see the naysayers I am reminded of Roosevelt's "man in the arena" speech

Quote:
It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs, who comes short again and again, because there is no effort without error and shortcoming; but who does actually strive to do the deeds; who knows great enthusiasms, the great devotions; who spends himself in a worthy cause; who at the best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement, and who at the worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who neither know victory nor defeat.
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Old 19-11-2015, 09:12   #17
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Re: Gunboat Bankruptcy

Quote:
Originally Posted by Factor View Post
Its never good - things like this, but when I see the naysayers I am reminded of Roosevelt's "man in the arena" speech
I think we live in different times, Factor. Roosevelt (1882-1945) experienced a different world, with a different attitude of humans towards themselfs and their own environment. We cant compair this saying with the times we have.

Now we live in 21st century. Human mankind nearby has ruined the whole world by its huge hunger for consumption and energy... and we all know lacking of resources seeing an increasing rate of crime, conflicts around the globe for these resources.

This needs a differently approach from viewer's perspective, nowadays. We dont need the brave ones, the conquerers, the fighters anymore.. thats real stupid acting and habit ! Blood, sweat and tears... all bla, bla, bla.... and not very intelligent. Its a kind of violence which lead us as human race to all the conflicts we have nowadays.

As I see it today we need pioneers who take care for the environment, for ressources, for human's and all other creature's well being (mentally and physically). A good philosophy in management is: A leader = manager is that guy, who services others to become successfully. A real manager is a servant which needs a very devotionally attitude giving up own ego.

We cannot give applause anymore to people who lead new projects as enterpreneur in the way we know it from 20th century. Having a crazy idea, wasting huge ressources (capital, materials, resourses, human brain ware etc. ...).

We need smartness taking care for resources, investments etc. ... There is no more the "try and error" method required. This is the place for research & sciences, e.g. laboratories and institutes on the University campus.
Thats why we have tools like "research & development" based on computer simulations, market research and cost controlling instruments available (which is teached at Universities since longer) to minimize costs and risks.

All what we see with the Gunboat project in USA isnt all of that. Maybe 50% is only rumours, who knows... we all only do lots of speculations around. Its chit-chat in such forums.

But some key points are the truth, undoubtly: Nobody needs to buy a 4 million dollar expensive Gunboat 60 to pace around with 20 knots having fun with water sailing">blue water sailing. This is just purely luxury.

Nobody needs to see dismastings, capsizings by mad and crazy racing teams who do not know what it means to work hard for little money instead spending millions for having fun in Carribeans.

We live in times of civilian democracy... no more the world of the rich is separated from normal worker's life ! Thats the side effect of new medias, social web... and so it is good to have this kind of transparency.

If guys like Peter want have a quiet life without all the critics, they should not (mis)use platforms like Scuttlebut News, Sailing Anarchy or Youtube to promote their businesses... and confrontate the normal sailors with all their own business problems. I am not really interested in Peter's problems and his bankcrupcy. As I suppose he still owns his big car, his big house and has some hundred thousand dollars on the private bank account.

If such guys only want experience admiration then they shall keep absent and silently about their problems as it was 100 years ago where the rich ones met in their yacht clubs behind closed doors and enjoying their expensive man's toys, far away from the boring life of a normal human who goes every day to work from Monday to Friday from 09:00 am till 05:00 pm.

Its the right of everybody to express his thoughts loudly, even we have to hear lots of trash and bla, bla, bla... wisely to remember that we hear lots of nonsense from the so called mighty people, e.g. politicans, top managers or president candidates and medias.

"Free speech" and "self expression" is an important human right. Power people (those living in the world of huge money) have to learn to deal with this new civilian democracy stream. Luckily we have these times !

Peter shall keep silently and deliver boats in excellent conditions to his customers, and I only want read from these customers, that they are happy with the boats they spent millions for. Thats it ! Nothing more, nothing less...

If an employee would have done all the mistakes a Peter has done, he already would have been fired and lost his job not knowing how to pay the credit for the tiny little house or finance the huge studying fees for his kids. Peter doesnt deserve this applaus or even admiration as some like to give it to him. Just another boat builder in the long, long history of boat building going since centuries.

I have no mercy with this "poor Peter" in any form. He has known before what it means to take such risks... and as he mentioned, he got the chance to learn a lot from. Pitty, it was so costly his learning process to burn lots of money. Can any normal worker afford this ? By sure not...

Hopefully I dont have to read all that nonsense he stated on 18th November 2015 in his public declaration yealing around like a little child again in two years. Better he'd take a coach who trains him in management skills.

Its just life what he experiences, with ups and downs. Nothing special ! Every day simple people struggle for life and just try to survive not being on the sunny side of life.... having "0" seconds time to think about all such problems.

Lets focus on the important things and what we can learn from sailing ! :-) Seriously I have my doubts that Peter really understands what sailing means... it spoils a man's mind living all day in the world of the rich ones.
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Old 19-11-2015, 10:06   #18
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Re: Gunboat Bankruptcy

Quote:
Originally Posted by Travis McGee View Post
Kudos to Peter Johnstone for "daring big."

Sometimes giants run too fast, trip, and fall hard ... and then the pygmies have a good laugh. But the giant is still a giant, and the pygmies are still pygmies.

After the dust settles, I'd love hear his frank thoughts on the Chinese outsourcing debacle, and any larger lessons found there. There is probably a book in there, if he wants to write it, I'll read it.

One thing I feel pretty sure of is that Peter will be back, smarter than ever, having incorporated many hard lessons.
I'd rather be a smart David then a stumbling, falling Goliath.

I feel for the workers in NC. A shame that they outsourced to China without having strong management and QC on the ground. Another proof that just throwing money at a situation isn't most of the times the best solution.

Running a tech company I come across the psychotic mind set of the VC world in the Valley. Just a couple of weeks ago I was at a conference where a "leading" VC said that he tells "his" companies to over hire and to heck with the cost.

So many involved in the capital funding markets are now infected with "magical thinking" coupled with delusion. Business is a matter of hard work building solid foundational business processes. Keeping a close eye on the dollars while also keeping a close eye on the product being built. Fail on any of these and your business will fail.

Apart from the poor management decisions such as farming out high end work to low end workers offshore without the much needed QC management one thing that showed me as an outsider that they were in trouble was with the way the mishandled the Gunboat dismasting and abandonment.

For me the Gunboat situation was a text book example of poor management decisions being dictated by an ill advised board. More interested most likely in but covering in respect of the immediate liability while it ignored the fatal damage being done to its product brand. The ensuing public loss of confidence dealt a far more serious blow than the cost of being up front and making changes to design or materials.

By hiding for so long and not getting out in front of the PR disaster they did more damage to their reputation in my opinion than the boat Rainmaker failure did by itself.

It is only my opinion but I think other businesses could learn not what to do in the face of a crises particularly from a PR perspective.

As with a rig failure, boat capsize or any other serious boating event I seek to study and analyze causes, mistakes if any so as to learn from them in order to not repeat the same errors. After all I learned a long time ago the saying that it is a fool that doesn't learn from his mistakes. So I use others mistakes and failures as a learning experience with a sense of humility that but for the grace of G-D there go I.

Let us all humbly learn the lessons of the Gunboat list of mistakes. I for one as a business manager hope that I have learned not to make the same mistakes.

I wish them well as they tack and change sails once again. I hope they can pull themselves out of this grounding for the sake of all but in particular their crew.

As with any crash, grounding or other kind of disaster. It is sad to see. No matter what blame is later attributed. It is still very sad.
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Old 19-11-2015, 10:11   #19
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Re: Gunboat Bankruptcy

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Originally Posted by Factor View Post
Its never good - things like this, but when I see the naysayers I am reminded of Roosevelt's "man in the arena" speech
AMEN!
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Old 19-11-2015, 10:13   #20
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Re: Gunboat Bankruptcy

Quote:
Originally Posted by Going Walkabout View Post
I'd rather be a smart David then a stumbling, falling Goliath.

I feel for the workers in NC. A shame that they outsourced to China without having strong management and QC on the ground. Another proof that just throwing money at a situation isn't most of the times the best solution.

Running a tech company I come across the psychotic mind set of the VC world in the Valley. Just a couple of weeks ago I was at a conference where a "leading" VC said that he tells "his" companies to over hire and to heck with the cost.

So many involved in the capital funding markets are now infected with "magical thinking" coupled with delusion. Business is a matter of hard work building solid foundational business processes. Keeping a close eye on the dollars while also keeping a close eye on the product being built. Fail on any of these and your business will fail.

Apart from the poor management decisions such as farming out high end work to low end workers offshore without the much needed QC management one thing that showed me as an outsider that they were in trouble was with the way the mishandled the Gunboat dismasting and abandonment.

For me the Gunboat situation was a text book example of poor management decisions being dictated by an ill advised board. More interested most likely in but covering in respect of the immediate liability while it ignored the fatal damage being done to its product brand. The ensuing public loss of confidence dealt a far more serious blow than the cost of being up front and making changes to design or materials.

By hiding for so long and not getting out in front of the PR disaster they did more damage to their reputation in my opinion than the boat Rainmaker failure did by itself.

It is only my opinion but I think other businesses could learn not what to do in the face of a crises particularly from a PR perspective.

As with a rig failure, boat capsize or any other serious boating event I seek to study and analyze causes, mistakes if any so as to learn from them in order to not repeat the same errors. After all I learned a long time ago the saying that it is a fool that doesn't learn from his mistakes. So I use others mistakes and failures as a learning experience with a sense of humility that but for the grace of G-D there go I.

Let us all humbly learn the lessons of the Gunboat list of mistakes. I for one as a business manager hope that I have learned not to make the same mistakes.

I wish them well as they tack and change sails once again. I hope they can pull themselves out of this grounding for the sake of all but in particular their crew.

As with any crash, grounding or other kind of disaster. It is sad to see. No matter what blame is later attributed. It is still very sad.
Yes, it's sad, and I hope that not only Peter but many others in the industry take heed. Especially about the outsourcing for cheaper labor part.
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Old 19-11-2015, 11:05   #21
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Re: Gunboat Bankruptcy

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Originally Posted by Skip JayR View Post
I think we live in different times, Factor. Roosevelt (1882-1945) experienced a different world, with a different attitude of humans towards themselfs and their own environment. We cant compair this saying with the times we have.

Now we live in 21st century. Human mankind nearby has ruined the whole world by its huge hunger for consumption and energy... and we all know lacking of resources seeing an increasing rate of crime, conflicts around the globe for these resources.

This needs a differently approach from viewer's perspective, nowadays. We dont need the brave ones, the conquerers, the fighters anymore.. thats real stupid acting and habit ! Blood, sweat and tears... all bla, bla, bla.... and not very intelligent. Its a kind of violence which lead us as human race to all the conflicts we have nowadays.

As I see it today we need pioneers who take care for the environment, for ressources, for human's and all other creature's well being (mentally and physically). A good philosophy in management is: A leader = manager is that guy, who services others to become successfully. A real manager is a servant which needs a very devotionally attitude giving up own ego.

We cannot give applause anymore to people who lead new projects as enterpreneur in the way we know it from 20th century. Having a crazy idea, wasting huge ressources (capital, materials, resourses, human brain ware etc. ...).

We need smartness taking care for resources, investments etc. ... There is no more the "try and error" method required. This is the place for research & sciences, e.g. laboratories and institutes on the University campus.
Thats why we have tools like "research & development" based on computer simulations, market research and cost controlling instruments available (which is teached at Universities since longer) to minimize costs and risks.

All what we see with the Gunboat project in USA isnt all of that. Maybe 50% is only rumours, who knows... we all only do lots of speculations around. Its chit-chat in such forums.

But some key points are the truth, undoubtly: Nobody needs to buy a 4 million dollar expensive Gunboat 60 to pace around with 20 knots having fun with blue water sailing. This is just purely luxury.

Nobody needs to see dismastings, capsizings by mad and crazy racing teams who do not know what it means to work hard for little money instead spending millions for having fun in Carribeans.

We live in times of civilian democracy... no more the world of the rich is separated from normal worker's life ! Thats the side effect of new medias, social web... and so it is good to have this kind of transparency.

If guys like Peter want have a quiet life without all the critics, they should not (mis)use platforms like Scuttlebut News, Sailing Anarchy or Youtube to promote their businesses... and confrontate the normal sailors with all their own business problems. I am not really interested in Peter's problems and his bankcrupcy. As I suppose he still owns his big car, his big house and has some hundred thousand dollars on the private bank account.

If such guys only want experience admiration then they shall keep absent and silently about their problems as it was 100 years ago where the rich ones met in their yacht clubs behind closed doors and enjoying their expensive man's toys, far away from the boring life of a normal human who goes every day to work from Monday to Friday from 09:00 am till 05:00 pm.

Its the right of everybody to express his thoughts loudly, even we have to hear lots of trash and bla, bla, bla... wisely to remember that we hear lots of nonsense from the so called mighty people, e.g. politicans, top managers or president candidates and medias.

"Free speech" and "self expression" is an important human right. Power people (those living in the world of huge money) have to learn to deal with this new civilian democracy stream. Luckily we have these times !

Peter shall keep silently and deliver boats in excellent conditions to his customers, and I only want read from these customers, that they are happy with the boats they spent millions for. Thats it ! Nothing more, nothing less...

If an employee would have done all the mistakes a Peter has done, he already would have been fired and lost his job not knowing how to pay the credit for the tiny little house or finance the huge studying fees for his kids. Peter doesnt deserve this applaus or even admiration as some like to give it to him. Just another boat builder in the long, long history of boat building going since centuries.

I have no mercy with this "poor Peter" in any form. He has known before what it means to take such risks... and as he mentioned, he got the chance to learn a lot from. Pitty, it was so costly his learning process to burn lots of money. Can any normal worker afford this ? By sure not...

Hopefully I dont have to read all that nonsense he stated on 18th November 2015 in his public declaration yealing around like a little child again in two years. Better he'd take a coach who trains him in management skills.

Its just life what he experiences, with ups and downs. Nothing special ! Every day simple people struggle for life and just try to survive not being on the sunny side of life.... having "0" seconds time to think about all such problems.

Lets focus on the important things and what we can learn from sailing ! :-) Seriously I have my doubts that Peter really understands what sailing means... it spoils a man's mind living all day in the world of the rich ones.
Please tell me you're European. If people in the USA are starting to think like this then all is lost.
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Old 19-11-2015, 11:51   #22
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Re: Gunboat Bankruptcy

I am very sorry for Gunboat. I hope they can sort it out. It is a very competitive and difficult market and i have seen several brands going down when they try to expand from a very small production to a bigger production scale.

That is a big jump, the market is very small on that niche and there are several luxury performance cats competing for it. Also the new series of boats have a new design, very far from the old ones and one that is not consensual: they invested not only on a bigger production scale, radically new designs and also a new performance type of cat, all at the same time.

The rope was stretched thin and if something went wrong there was no possible safeguards...and things went wrong in many ways, from a capsize to a lost boat passing with problems on new boats and problems with quality with China outsourcing.

All very sad. As I said I hope things can turn out alright but for that a new investor is in need, with big pockets and with a better management. The Gunboats are great sailing boats and there is a market for them, if the price and quality are right.
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Old 19-11-2015, 12:01   #23
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Re: Gunboat Bankruptcy

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Originally Posted by Cottontop View Post
Please tell me you're European. If people in the USA are starting to think like this then all is lost.
That "vision" as nothing to do with being European, in fact in Europe the luxury segment of sailboats is going stronger and it is the one that had the biggest expansion on the last years. Only this year the number of luxury big and maxi fast performance yachts that were launched or commissioned is surprising.
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Old 19-11-2015, 12:17   #24
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Re: Gunboat Bankruptcy

A company that stumbles once and again and again can't roll on for ever. Boats are not cars and Gunboat is not Volksvagen.

Glad to hear G4 may remain afloat and spin off something new and interesting. There is no progress where there is no risk taken.

I am not sure though SIG and the likes will step in. They do not seem to have caught on. I like SIG and I would buy one, but it is so much a sailor's boat that I think it appeals to a very very narrow group of potentials, most of whom have boats already.

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Old 19-11-2015, 13:23   #25
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Re: Gunboat Bankruptcy

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Originally Posted by Going Walkabout View Post
As with any crash, grounding or other kind of disaster. It is sad to see. No matter what blame is later attributed. It is still very sad.
Well spoken... but just in one point I suppose you are too gently having mercy with all these "morons" throwing around with other people's money...

Quote:
So many involved in the capital funding markets are now infected with "magical thinking" coupled with delusion.
it is not "just now". May I remember the big burst of the "dot com bubble" in 2000-2001. I was consultant during 1997-2002 for "virtual brands"... I had my first Internet account in 1994 having started with simply html coding... so I went into this business.

It was nearby impossible to consult conservatively the big corporations. They all drove mad (at least 95% of them), have thrown huge money into the throats of youngsters who appeared quickly with expensive Rolex on the "after work parties" of the Internet start up companies (we had big parties with more than 1,000 participants), enjoying their brand new expensive Sunseeker motor yachts front Spanish Coast.... all dreaming around to blow up their "stupid ideas" of ecommerce into something big like Yahoo became (and shortly later followed Amazon). it was like "gold rush" times in Canada searching for the big nuggets on the banks of Klondike river.

It is not just now. People arent educated in Western world to get their egos under control. Instead they are teached madly by neuro marketing advertising (and the education system to be trained using their ellbows aleady as kids) to follow the path of egoistically self realisation. Very stupid.

Why we got the real estate scandal in 2008 ? Why is a "Deutsche Bank" (German Bank) building reserves of 2 billion Euros for their court trials being accused doing illegally busineesses over many, many years ???

We live in a spoilt world... and the "Gunboat Scandal" is just a mirror of that madness. As you said: a good business is based on hard work, and it only needs a little piece of the big puzzle which makes success in the wrong place, and all can be ruined.
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Old 19-11-2015, 13:42   #26
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Re: Gunboat Bankruptcy

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Originally Posted by barnakiel View Post
I am not sure though SIG and the likes will step in. They do not seem to have caught on. I like SIG and I would buy one, but it is so much a sailor's boat that I think it appeals to a very very narrow group of potentials, most of whom have boats already.
Good question. I have asked myself too why they keep themselfs so silently... maybe they are not just too hungry for success and follow the philosophy: small production, but excellent quality ?

Lets look at the "News page" of LeBreton Yachts !
Le Breton Yachts Latest News and Updates

Astonishing that they go slow-motion. Announcing the new brand in 2008, one year later the world premiere during Cannes boat show and after nearby 3 years later in June 2011 they announed the 2nd boat production.

So you see that all is going very slowly, smoothly.... no hurry behind, no "mad pushing". In August 2013 (5 years after the beginning) they started to build the boat regularly in South Africa after a global search for the right partner.

These guys take their time. And they are some of the best in the segment of multihull racing:
Le Bretons Catamaran Design Team | High Performance Hull Designs

Old saying: "Good things need time" !

Not that I want say Peter of Gunboat didnt have or take enough time. He built the 62 foot catamaran Tribe in 2001 which was the founding boat for the Gunboats... til today they present a series at 40′, 55′, 65′, 72′, and 77′ length.

Maybe Peter went too quickly through all these sizes within 14 years ?
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Old 19-11-2015, 14:19   #27
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Re: Gunboat Bankruptcy

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Originally Posted by Skip JayR View Post
40′, 55′, 65′, 72′, and 77′
Please correct me of I am wrong but gunboat built (or had built) the following.

40 g4. Dutch 1 built hull number 2 in production
48 south Africa 5
55 usa, 4-5 another half dozen in production
60 china 5?
62 south Africa 3
66 south Africa 6
78 south Africa never finished
90 south Africa 1

The 65 and 72 have not been built.


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Old 19-11-2015, 14:44   #28
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Re: Gunboat Bankruptcy

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Originally Posted by Skip JayR View Post
I think we live in different times, Factor...
Plonk. Into the ignore bin.

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Old 19-11-2015, 14:50   #29
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Re: Gunboat Bankruptcy

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Originally Posted by Going Walkabout View Post
I'd rather be a smart David then a stumbling, falling Goliath.

I feel for the workers in NC. A shame that they outsourced to China without having strong management and QC on the ground. Another proof that just throwing money at a situation isn't most of the times the best solution.

Running a tech company I come across the psychotic mind set of the VC world in the Valley. Just a couple of weeks ago I was at a conference where a "leading" VC said that he tells "his" companies to over hire and to heck with the cost.

So many involved in the capital funding markets are now infected with "magical thinking" coupled with delusion. Business is a matter of hard work building solid foundational business processes. Keeping a close eye on the dollars while also keeping a close eye on the product being built. Fail on any of these and your business will fail.

Apart from the poor management decisions such as farming out high end work to low end workers offshore without the much needed QC management one thing that showed me as an outsider that they were in trouble was with the way the mishandled the Gunboat dismasting and abandonment.

For me the Gunboat situation was a text book example of poor management decisions being dictated by an ill advised board. More interested most likely in but covering in respect of the immediate liability while it ignored the fatal damage being done to its product brand. The ensuing public loss of confidence dealt a far more serious blow than the cost of being up front and making changes to design or materials.

By hiding for so long and not getting out in front of the PR disaster they did more damage to their reputation in my opinion than the boat Rainmaker failure did by itself.

It is only my opinion but I think other businesses could learn not what to do in the face of a crises particularly from a PR perspective.

As with a rig failure, boat capsize or any other serious boating event I seek to study and analyze causes, mistakes if any so as to learn from them in order to not repeat the same errors. After all I learned a long time ago the saying that it is a fool that doesn't learn from his mistakes. So I use others mistakes and failures as a learning experience with a sense of humility that but for the grace of G-D there go I.

Let us all humbly learn the lessons of the Gunboat list of mistakes. I for one as a business manager hope that I have learned not to make the same mistakes.

I wish them well as they tack and change sails once again. I hope they can pull themselves out of this grounding for the sake of all but in particular their crew.

As with any crash, grounding or other kind of disaster. It is sad to see. No matter what blame is later attributed. It is still very sad.
Why don't you tell us what mistakes you think were made? It's easy to spout platitudes, especially in hindsight, but if you are going to blame someone who bet his family name and fortune on an idea you should at least be specific.

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Old 19-11-2015, 15:34   #30
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Re: Gunboat Bankruptcy

Quote:
Originally Posted by Geekatlrg View Post
Please correct me of I am wrong but gunboat built (or had built) the following.

40 g4. Dutch 1 built hull number 2 in production
48 south Africa 5
55 usa, 4-5 another half dozen in production
60 china 5?
62 south Africa 3
66 south Africa 6
78 south Africa never finished
90 south Africa 1

The 65 and 72 have not been built.
I only referred to the officially statement of Gunboat, as one can read on the website... About | Gunboat

So then 20-21 boats built in 14 years ????? Why we talk a lot about this boat warft ???? Thats 8-8.4 months for one boat in average.

Not a lot... no boat warft can live from to work sooooooooooo long on one single boat...

The efforts of design, testing (computer simulation, wind channel, water tank), prototyping and sea trials, advertising/marketing for 7 different boat types by size is huge (we dont calculate that one, the G4 built in Netherlands as it was completly designed by HOlland COmposites on their own).
The "overhead costs" for Gunboat USA must be tremendously high not being covered by such low numbers of production units.

I think a catamaran built in small series by a specialists multihull warft may take maximum 4-6 months with individually interior as ordered by the new owner. A small boat builder corporation should sell 2-3 bigger cats per year to cover all costs inclusive pre-financing "research + development" of new series.

In comparison: Fountaine Pajot one of the world leading multihull builders has launched over 30 models since 1983 delivering over 2,500 boats to date. Thats roughly 6.5 boats / month.
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