Cruisers Forum
 


Join CruisersForum Today

Reply
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 08-11-2007, 08:15   #106
Registered User

Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Ohio
Posts: 2,313
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2Hulls View Post
Sheese, joli. You wanna race me? Come on.

Here's the course: circumnavigation of the Delmarva Pennisula - non stop clockwise. It's a closed course. We can motor thru the Ches-Del canal. Start and finish line is the south tunnel of the Ches Bay Bridge Tunnel.

When can you get here?

I was being neighborly by offering you a beer and a chance to relax and tell racing stories and you become an jackass.

Sheese. An empty wagon makes the most noise.

Dave
Actually Dave listed below is the comment I made directly to you earlier. The comment above was a general comment. But we'll be out east in about 3 years and can have a race then.


"Well Dave, one day we'll have the boat out east and we'll have a little bit of a fun race. Win, loose, or draw I'll buy the first round. Hell, you can be the rabbit, I'll duck.

And no I don't race anymore either, we sail an old cruisers."
__________________

__________________
Joli is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-11-2007, 08:19   #107
Registered User

Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Winters cruising; summers Chesapeake Bay
Boat: Catana 471
Posts: 1,239
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joli View Post
Go sail the course and compare elapsed times. Are your brave enough to do this or are you cowards?
Joli - you pissed me off so I drug out some race results. I own the corrected time course record for the "Down the Bay" multihull regatta set in 1988. Elapsed time over the approx. 150 statute mile course was 11 hours 21.6 minutes. That's averaging over 13 mph which is over 15 knts.

Were you out of diapers then?

Bring on yer mono "that we all own" that can do that.

Dave
__________________

__________________
2Hulls is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-11-2007, 08:33   #108
Registered User

Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Ohio
Posts: 2,313
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2Hulls View Post
Joli - you pissed me off so I drug out some race results. I own the corrected time course record for the "Down the Bay" multihull regatta set in 1988. Elapsed time over the approx. 150 statute mile course was 11 hours 21.6 minutes. That's averaging over 13 mph which is over 15 knts.

Were you out of diapers then?

Bring on yer mono "that we all own" that can do that.

Dave
Cool, that's what we all want to see, that wasn't hard was it?

What was the boat? What were the conditions? Were there also monos racing the course?

Go back to post 40. I stated results, Fastcat did the same thing later, he stated results. Why is this so hard to discuss without a whole lotta insults? "diapers"? Hahaha
__________________
Joli is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-11-2007, 08:51   #109
Registered User

Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Winters cruising; summers Chesapeake Bay
Boat: Catana 471
Posts: 1,239
Joli - this will be my last post on this topic.

Let's go back to basics. This is a cruiser's forum. Sure, the original post on this thread was about boat speed - Gunboat vs big racing mono. But you wanna talk about actual race results multis vs monos. Bottom line - you're on the wrong forum for that. This is a cruiser's forum. Try yer luck over at Catamaran Sailor Magazine

Truth is there are precious few organized races held where multis and monos race each other. So there isn't much data. Even the results you provided were different classes. Did they have the same start? What were the conditions?

Here's the real bottom line and the body of knowledge and experience among thousands of sailors show it: when the wind is strong enough for a displacement mono to reach its hull speed, a multi will be faster through the water on all points of sail, yet a mono may beat it to the windward mark. Any wind stronger and the multi will go even faster. Less than hull speed wind and all bets are off.

End of discussion for me.

Dave
__________________
2Hulls is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-11-2007, 08:53   #110
...

Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 483
This is really getting good, we've got some idiot from North East almost landlocked USA (apart from a bit of a lake) who sounds as welcome as a "Fart in a space suit" and as "Useful as a hole in the head" being totally out of his depth arguing with - what sounds to me - 2 experienced, knowledgable, and ocean sailing seasoned multihull sailors from the West Coast, USA and Australia.
Come on 2 hulls I am sure your Catana (very nice), even though a cruiser would beat the pants off him.
I don't know why he is being so argumentative when we all know (even our sensible mono hull friends) that multihulls will (par for par) beat the mono's.
__________________
ireaney is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-11-2007, 09:26   #111
Registered User

Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Ohio
Posts: 2,313
Seems to me the only one willing to post data is Fastcat and myself. He sailed a 211 mile closed course 3/4 of a knot faster then then a 64' Grand Soleil. He posted polars. In exactly which post did I deride or denounce his statements?

I did denounce the snide statements about Corsairs beating the J-Boats upwind and presented data from real life races. From there it's all downhill. Can't you stand a little qantitative assesment of the boats we sail?

Go back to post 40 and start reading. Better yet, put on your gear, and go sail.

And I don't buy the statement that this forum is only about cruising and speed is not relevent. Go back and read the title to the thread, it is indicative of the attitude most multihuller have, rude.
__________________
Joli is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-11-2007, 09:38   #112
Registered User
 
Tnflakbait's Avatar

Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Southern California
Boat: CSK, 33' Aita Pe'ape'a
Posts: 338
Images: 7
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joli View Post
Seems to me the only one willing to post data is Fastcat and myself. He sailed a 211 mile closed course 3/4 of a knot faster then then a 64' Grand Soleil. He posted polars. In exactly which post did I deride or denounce his statements?
I thought I gave you some race stats for my sistership? 2200 miles 11 days 16 hours? 33' cat? Multis weren't allowed to race with monos. (Because monos were slower)

I'm not sure what you are trying to prove. (Really I have no idea)

Here is a question for you Joli man. And you can't respond with a question about race stats. Do you think monohulls are faster than multihulls? I know it is a vague question. But I want a yes or no answer. Faster period. Which one?

Do you believe that man landed on the moon? (Bonus question) If you want to come to the Pacific Ocean, I will race you for big $$$ UPWIND. Then I'll buy you a beer with your $.
__________________
Tnflakbait is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-11-2007, 09:40   #113
Moderator Emeritus
 
David M's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: San Francisco Bay
Boat: research vessel
Posts: 10,150
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joli View Post
Go back and read the title to the thread, it is indicative of the attitude most multihuller have, rude.
I made that "rude" title. I don't see how on Earth it is rude. I could have said "Catamaran exquisitely overtakes ritzy monohull"...but how snooty would that have been?
__________________
David

Life begins where land ends.
David M is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-11-2007, 10:02   #114
Registered User

Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Ohio
Posts: 2,313
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tnflakbait View Post
Do you think monohulls are faster than multihulls? I know it is a vague question.
The answer is sometimes. Each boat will have a range that they excell in. In general, around a closed course or when doing variable sailing, I believe a cruising mono (Schock 35) will often be quicker then the cruising multi (F31). This is my opinion from years of observing multis on the race course. I assume your opinion is different? How do you formulate your opinion?

See, look at how easy this is. No insults by either of us although some of your comments are snide but maybe I'm guilty too!
__________________
Joli is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-11-2007, 10:12   #115
Registered User

Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Ohio
Posts: 2,313
Quote:
Originally Posted by David M View Post
I made that "rude" title. I don't see how on Earth it is rude. I could have said "Catamaran exquisitely overtakes ritzy monohull"...but how snooty would that have been?
Dave, that is simply the general attitude that seems to prevail by most multi hull sailors. It reeks of superiority and when someone questions the data they are insulted.

As I said earlier. I reviewed elapsed times with a multi year Corsair (F25 and 28) national champ. When I showed him elapsed times (as posted here) where he was 10% slower around the course then the monos, he denied it, even though it was in black and white.

When he wins a distance race, beating the monos by an hour I don't deny it. Its his race, he won, the results peak for themselves.

So here we are, 500 miles left to go in the Carib 1500 and the Jeneau and Gunboat are within 20 miles. This is typical sailing in variable winds. The boats are essentially even.
__________________
Joli is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-11-2007, 11:47   #116
Registered User
 
henryv's Avatar

Join Date: May 2004
Location: Ontario
Boat: PDQ32 & FP Helia 44 on order
Posts: 242
Joli I simply responded to your statement that for a given hull length boat speeds would essentially be the same. Given that I have had the benefit of owning a monohull and a cat with the same waterline length I felt qualified to comment on my experience which clearly favours the cat when in comes to speed.
For my efforts I was rewarded with a rather snotty reply suggesting that unless I had the race results to support my views my claim was not valid.
I understand that on the great lakes most summer races are run in modest winds where a cat would probably not do all that well on a triangular course. At the same time I know that I often sail at 10 or 12 knots in my little 32 ft. cat and at the same time it has been my experience that in light winds I sail at least as fast as I did in my mono which I will concede was no racing sled.
This should not have turned into a pi.....ing contest. I think Dave - 2Hulls bottom line comment sums things up nicely.
__________________
henryv
henryv is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-11-2007, 12:17   #117
Registered User

Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Ohio
Posts: 2,313
Quote:
Originally Posted by henryv View Post
Joli I simply responded to your statement that for a given hull length boat speeds would essentially be the same. Given that I have had the benefit of owning a monohull and a cat with the same waterline length I felt qualified to comment on my experience which clearly favours the cat when in comes to speed.
For my efforts I was rewarded with a rather snotty reply suggesting that unless I had the race results to support my views my claim was not valid.
I understand that on the great lakes most summer races are run in modest winds where a cat would probably not do all that well on a triangular course. At the same time I know that I often sail at 10 or 12 knots in my little 32 ft. cat and at the same time it has been my experience that in light winds I sail at least as fast as I did in my mono which I will concede was no racing sled.
This should not have turned into a pi.....ing contest. I think Dave - 2Hulls bottom line comment sums things up nicely.
Fair enough Henry. You made a qualitative assesment I asked for qualitative proof rudely. My apology!
__________________
Joli is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-11-2007, 12:31   #118
Moderator Emeritus
 
David M's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: San Francisco Bay
Boat: research vessel
Posts: 10,150
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joli View Post
Dave, that is simply the general attitude that seems to prevail by most multi hull sailors. It reeks of superiority and when someone questions the data they are insulted.

As I said earlier. I reviewed elapsed times with a multi year Corsair (F25 and 28) national champ. When I showed him elapsed times (as posted here) where he was 10% slower around the course then the monos, he denied it, even though it was in black and white.

When he wins a distance race, beating the monos by an hour I don't deny it. Its his race, he won, the results peak for themselves.

So here we are, 500 miles left to go in the Carib 1500 and the Jeneau and Gunboat are within 20 miles. This is typical sailing in variable winds. The boats are essentially even.
Joli,
I think it's just a matter of human nature to take pride in the type of vessel that you are sailing on. Everyone here, monohull sailor or cat sailor knows that sometimes cats are faster and sometimes monohulls are faster. I think people in here also know that there are dozens of different factors that cause this.

I wouldn't read people who speak boastfully about their boat so much as braggarts or superior or arrogant or ignorant, but more that they are proud. I don't see anything wrong with taking a little pride in something. Besides, how boring would this forum be if people never stated their sometimes biased opinions?

I think the best attitude to take is to enjoy the reading for the entertainment value even if one vehemently disagrees with another persons post.

-David
__________________
David

Life begins where land ends.
David M is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-11-2007, 12:59   #119
Registered User

Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Ohio
Posts: 2,313
Quote:
Originally Posted by David M View Post
Joli,
I think it's just a matter of human nature to take pride in the type of vessel that you are sailing on. Everyone here, monohull sailor or cat sailor knows that sometimes cats are faster and sometimes monohulls are faster. I think people in here also know that there are dozens of different factors that cause this.

I wouldn't read people who speak boastfully about their boat so much as braggarts or superior or arrogant or ignorant, but more that they are proud. I don't see anything wrong with taking a little pride in something. Besides, how boring would this forum be if people never stated their sometimes biased opinions?

I think the best attitude to take is to enjoy the reading for the entertainment value even if one vehemently disagrees with another persons post.

-David
David, I agree there is nothing wrong with pride. Pride of ownership, pride of a job well done, pride in oneself. But after a while, it is tiring when pride turn into snobbery.

As an example: If I've heard it once I've heard it a thousand times on this site and other sites. "I own cat! You own a dog!" Pride or snobbery? You tell me?
__________________
Joli is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-11-2007, 14:49   #120
Senior Cruiser
 
44'cruisingcat's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 7,454
Images: 69
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joli View Post
Seems to me the only one willing to post data is Fastcat and myself. He sailed a 211 mile closed course 3/4 of a knot faster then then a 64' Grand Soleil. He posted polars. In exactly which post did I deride or denounce his statements?

I did denounce the snide statements about Corsairs beating the J-Boats upwind and presented data from real life races. From there it's all downhill. Can't you stand a little qantitative assesment of the boats we sail?

Go back to post 40 and start reading. Better yet, put on your gear, and go sail.

And I don't buy the statement that this forum is only about cruising and speed is not relevent. Go back and read the title to the thread, it is indicative of the attitude most multihuller have, rude.

You seem to have ignored where I mentioned the annual Brisbane - Gladstone race, where multihulls sail a longer course than the monohulls, and beat them every year in elapsed time. A 50 foot catamaran repeatedly beating 90 odd foot canting keel monohulls (complete with running engines) over a 200 mile plus course.

Of course speed is relevant. And speed is just one of the many adavantages multihulls have. However the video shows a 62 foot CRUISING boat overtaking an 80 foot RACING boat. And the other one I posted shows a 30 foot tri overtaking an open 60 racing mono. But hey, in your mind mono's are still faster.
__________________

__________________
44'cruisingcat is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
33 foot lil' Gunboat? beaucoupbateau Multihull Sailboats 22 04-03-2009 12:07
Gunboat CNN video Tnflakbait Multihull Sailboats 77 06-04-2008 08:55
Watertight doors on cats. David M Multihull Sailboats 15 10-03-2008 18:55
companionway doors mario f Construction, Maintenance & Refit 13 12-11-2007 06:53



Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -7. The time now is 20:00.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.