Good Value Cat: Is My Dream Still Alive?

[drcat]

I would suggest you look at Privilege 39's (12m). They have crossed oceans done circumnavigations ( see: Maxing Out) Also see Youtube Taking the Chance now in Luperon DR after having sailed from New Orleans to Bahamas. They have 4 real cabins and normal size double beds, fore and aft, 2-4 heads, reasonable headroom, 2 engines and ok sailing performance with ok bridgedeck clearance and are ICW friendly. They do have galley down and a stern rather than bulkhead helm, and slanted saloon roof. Some people prefer galley down and position of helm, while exposed, does not matter on many long sails as autopilot is usually doing most of the steering. They can sell anywhere from $60K (one sold last year via Craigslist in Goodland FL) to $100K (another S FL craigslist) to $100-$130K on Yachtworld.
Here is one you might research. Yr 1990, named Papillon, listed on yachtworld first $130K then $99.8K , last listing April 2018 after price drop but no Sale Pending notice so might be sitting unsold in same lot off of Hancock st/Myrick st now. US Coast Guard Doc 981511 owner was Frank Djennas of 13510 Port Royal Ct Corpus Christi Tx (all this in public domain) Broker in YW was a Terry Myers (850) 712-5459, but I'd try the owner first.

[sailingchiro]

We have a 37' Lagoon TPI and it is a very solid built boat. They are selling for $130-150k. I was looking at the Gemini. Unfortunately at the time we purchased this boat, 2 Gemini's made by Hunter were sitting next to us. Both were getting repainted because of cracks in the gel coat. My boat was 15 years older but had less cracks. Repainting them cost $30k. I asked the shop mechanic why they were repainting, he said to push on the topsides, and they deflected quite a bit. Now the Gemini's are made by Catalina and understand much better quality but no first hand knowledge. My opinion, the Gemini's made in Annapolis or by Catalina are great bay boats or island hopping. The Hunter built boats are not for me. I have sailed on 3 Geminis from the 1980's to current. They are not a heavy boats like the Prouts, Lagoons, Fountaine Pajots, Priviledge, etc. but I wouldn't have any problem sailing a Gemini around the Caribbean or Bahamas. Would not take one open water 300 miles offshore.
I purchased our boat for cheap ($20k) as a repo and put about another $50k into it with new engines/transmissions, mast, rigging, paint, electronics etc. Did most of the work myself with many mistakes but I know that boat! Now we have a very nice boat with only minor problems. If you are purchasing an older but better built boat, plan on spending another $30-50k on a refit. But you will know that boat inside and out. Plus you will have a better built boat with new systems that will last a very long time. My opinion is to purchase an older but heavier (better built) boat with twin diesels. Maybe a genset, good refrigeration, AC, Auto helm, etc. All the big boat stuff. Hate to buy a Gemini and want a heavier boat. The systems costs the same for both boats. The twin diesels make you look like a rock star docking.

[ausnp84]

Originally Posted by sailingchiro

We have a 37' Lagoon TPI and it is a very solid built boat. They are selling for $130-150k. I was looking at the Gemini. Unfortunately at the time we purchased this boat, 2 Gemini's made by Hunter were sitting next to us. Both were getting repainted because of cracks in the gel coat. My boat was 15 years older but had less cracks. Repainting them cost $30k. I asked the shop mechanic why they were repainting, he said to push on the topsides, and they deflected quite a bit. Now the Gemini's are made by Catalina and understand much better quality but no first hand knowledge. My opinion, the Gemini's made in Annapolis or by Catalina are great bay boats or island hopping. The Hunter built boats are not for me. I have sailed on 3 Geminis from the 1980's to current. They are not a heavy boats like the Prouts, Lagoons, Fountaine Pajots, Priviledge, etc. but I wouldn't have any problem sailing a Gemini around the Caribbean or Bahamas. Would not take one open water 300 miles offshore.
I purchased our boat for cheap ($20k) as a repo and put about another $50k into it with new engines/transmissions, mast, rigging, paint, electronics etc. Did most of the work myself with many mistakes but I know that boat! Now we have a very nice boat with only minor problems. If you are purchasing an older but better built boat, plan on spending another $30-50k on a refit. But you will know that boat inside and out. Plus you will have a better built boat with new systems that will last a very long time. My opinion is to purchase an older but heavier (better built) boat with twin diesels. Maybe a genset, good refrigeration, AC, Auto helm, etc. All the big boat stuff. Hate to buy a Gemini and want a heavier boat. The systems costs the same for both boats. The twin diesels make you look like a rock star docking.

How on earth does a repaint cost $30k?!? Some people just get taken to the cleaners way too easily. Worst case scenario you spend $600 on a good two part polyurethane and roll/tip it on over a couple of weeks...

N

[sailingchiro]

Originally Posted by ausnp84

How on earth does a repaint cost $30k?!? Some people just get taken to the cleaners way too easily. Worst case scenario you spend $600 on a good two part polyurethane and roll/tip it on over a couple of weeks...

N

Seriously? You are going there?, they had to grind out all the crazing and fill the entire deck with epoxy and fair. Repaint two hulls, the bridge deck, the cockpit, etc. Remove all the deck hardware. About 5 gallons of epoxy, 10 gallons of primer, 7 gallons of Awlgrip. If you will repaint a boat for $600, then you are hired. I am sorry that my post offends you to the point of making a blanket comment. I didn't pay the $30k but it did cost me about $16k and 7k of that was supplies only. Have you painted the deck of a large catamaran before that was full of crazing? There is alot of real estate on a cat. If you roll and tip over crazing the cracks will reappear within 2 years. I have rolled and tipped topsides before on a small (27') monohull. no problem. Yes the cost around $600-800 for paint and primer using 2 part. Other supplies roughly $300-500. Topsides are completely different than painting the deck and cockpit.
A large catamaran has to have a tent and the inside of the boat has to have climate control so it doesn't sweat. The tent alone is around $600. Awlgrip overspray on other boats is very costly to remove. It took a painter full time 4 months each to paint the Gemini's. My painter took 3 months full time. The non skid has to be faired and re applied. Yes, the $30k was too much. That is why I didn't use that painter. I waited for the right price and paid half for my bigger boat. It is ALOT of work to paint a catamaran. Especially the deck.

[44'cruisingcat]

Originally Posted by ausnp84

How on earth does a repaint cost $30k?!? Some people just get taken to the cleaners way too easily. Worst case scenario you spend $600 on a good two part polyurethane and roll/tip it on over a couple of weeks...

N

A properly done repaint is a huge job.

Depending on where you are, to spray polyurethane the boat may be required to be in a shed. Which would mean the rig has to come off.

Removing all the hatches, portlights, winches, cleats, staunchions etc takes lots of time. How about windows?

Then there's the prep. Depending on the condition of the boat (and if it needs a repaint it's probably far from perfect) that could be weeks of work.

Materials costs represent only a small fraction of the job.

[ausnp84]

Originally Posted by sailingchiro

Seriously? You are going there?, they had to grind out all the crazing and fill the entire deck with epoxy and fair. Repaint two hulls, the bridge deck, the cockpit, etc. Remove all the deck hardware. About 5 gallons of epoxy, 10 gallons of primer, 7 gallons of Awlgrip. If you will repaint a boat for $600, then you are hired. I am sorry that my post offends you to the point of making a blanket comment. I didn't pay the $30k but it did cost me about $16k and 7k of that was supplies only. Have you painted the deck of a large catamaran before that was full of crazing? There is alot of real estate on a cat. If you roll and tip over crazing the cracks will reappear within 2 years. I have rolled and tipped topsides before on a small (27') monohull. no problem. Yes the cost around $600-800 for paint and primer using 2 part. Other supplies roughly $300-500. Topsides are completely different than painting the deck and cockpit.
A large catamaran has to have a tent and the inside of the boat has to have climate control so it doesn't sweat. The tent alone is around $600. Awlgrip overspray on other boats is very costly to remove. It took a painter full time 4 months each to paint the Gemini's. My painter took 3 months full time. The non skid has to be faired and re applied. Yes, the $30k was too much. That is why I didn't use that painter. I waited for the right price and paid half for my bigger boat. It is ALOT of work to paint a catamaran. Especially the deck.

It’s ok, I’m not offended and you’ve answered my question in that you also thought it was overpriced and didn’t use that painter. In fact you paid about half ($16k) which for a professional job, sounds about right (the yard here quote around £10k for a full job, including dropping the rig, prep, tenting, painting and relaunching).

In answer to your question, yep, I’m in the process of repainting a 42ft cat now with a 23ft beam. The boat is 20 years old and there is considerable crazing to the bows and forward deck of the boat, not to mention various dings and scratches from various docks and pontoons. There’s also a number of windows and hatches that will need to be removed for the paint job, along with covering a number of other pieces to avoid overspray. Yes my £600 was a throw away line but you get the gist. If you have time to do the prep and are happy with a roll and tip finish, a repaint is not a terribly expensive proposition. If, on the other hand, you hand the keys to your boat to a yard and ask for a paint job, then you better be prepared to stump up some serious cash.

So yes, I am going there and yes, I feel my comment was justified to point out $30k was a hell of a lot of money to spend on a paint job.

N

[12BCruzn]

this one has lots of miles on her but is very well equipped:
https://www.yachtworld.com/boats/200...nced%20listing

[Davy J]

Hate to buy a Gemini and want a heavier boat. The systems costs the same for both boats. The twin diesels make you look like a rock star docking.
__________________

Yawn.......... And here we are.......... Left our last anchorage today, spent the weekend there. Superficial spider cracks don't require 30,000.00 in paint jobs.

I've owned mono hulls, a catamaran and a few power boats with twin motors, get back to me about docking..........

Easy, when you know how.

[NormanMartin]

For what it is worth. My buddy has a Tony Smith Gemini 105mc. Sailed it from Marion MA fo Bahamas and back using both ICW and ocean. Boat is comfy, sails well, repairable, and a dream to dock. I am not a multi guy at all and Gemini is for me. The Gemini user group is close knit and helpful. Amazing group of folks.

I charter skipper a lot of cats. Don't like them much. But what do i know? My boat is 33 loa, 8 beam and 6 draft.

Keep well.

[12BCruzn]

RE: transiting ICW
You won't make it from Pamlico to Beaufort, NC with a 70' mast. We scraped our VHF antenna with our 66' ft mast on the two bridges north of Beaufort.

[Chotu]

The paint alone for my topsides on my cat (not the deck, just waterline to the "rail") cost $5,000 USD. That's sitting in the cans, unopened, not even Awlgrip or a marine paint, but a good 2 part linear polyurethane from the automotive industry.

$600 to paint a Catamaran is way, way off. They're big on surface area.

[Suijin]

Originally Posted by ausnp84

In answer to your question, yep, I’m in the process of repainting a 42ft cat now with a 23ft beam. The boat is 20 years old and there is considerable crazing to the bows and forward deck of the boat, not to mention various dings and scratches from various docks and pontoons. There’s also a number of windows and hatches that will need to be removed for the paint job, along with covering a number of other pieces to avoid overspray. Yes my £600 was a throw away line but you get the gist. If you have time to do the prep and are happy with a roll and tip finish, a repaint is not a terribly expensive proposition.

So yes, I am going there and yes, I feel my comment was justified to point out $30k was a hell of a lot of money to spend on a paint job.

Have you actually done a similar project on another boat, and seen how it fared over the course of 5-10 years? I suspect not.

I have. 95% of the cost is labor, and 95% of the labor is prep. Skimp on the prep and you’ll be staring at crazing/cracking reappearing through the paint in a few years.

80-90% of gelcoat crazing and spider cracks go down into the laminate, usually only one schedule but sometimes deeper. You need to grind out that damaged laminate and repair with new cloth, level and fair it or the cracks will be back, virtually guaranteed. It’s *very* time consuming to do it properly.

I refit the deck of my boat, 32 years old. The only professional help I secured was a guy for some tricky fairing, the actual spraying, and to hold a wrench down below when rebedding all the hardware near the end. I never counted the hours I put in but it was easily over 300. At $85/hour that would be over $25k in labor.

While I was doing my deck there was an older Gemini being redone in the bay next to me. Made my project look like a walk on the park. Huge areas of cracking. The deck skins on those boats are like a Moon Bounce. The workers on it, both with 30 yeasts of laminate/paint experience, thought it an ill-conceived project but the owner loved the boat and wanted what he wanted and was willing to pay for it.

[ausnp84]

Originally Posted by Suijin

Have you actually done a similar project on another boat, and seen how it fared over the course of 5-10 years? I suspect not.

I have. 95% of the cost is labor, and 95% of the labor is prep. Skimp on the prep and you’ll be staring at crazing/cracking reappearing through the paint in a few years.

80-90% of gelcoat crazing and spider cracks go down into the laminate, usually only one schedule but sometimes deeper. You need to grind out that damaged laminate and repair with new cloth, level and fair it or the cracks will be back, virtually guaranteed. It’s *very* time consuming to do it properly.

I refit the deck of my boat, 32 years old. The only professional help I secured was a guy for some tricky fairing, the actual spraying, and to hold a wrench down below when rebedding all the hardware near the end. I never counted the hours I put in but it was easily over 300. At $85/hour that would be over $25k in labor.

While I was doing my deck there was an older Gemini being redone in the bay next to me. Made my project look like a walk on the park. Huge areas of cracking. The deck skins on those boats are like a Moon Bounce. The workers on it, both with 30 yeasts of laminate/paint experience, thought it an ill-conceived project but the owner loved the boat and wanted what he wanted and was willing to pay for it.

You know what they say about assuming, right?

6 years rebuilding a mono from a bare hull up, and that included two colour changes throughout the build. Well over £100k put in, as well as thousands of hours of my labour. The boat then did plenty of miles sailing it’s way around the UK and down to Portugal. Paint job stood up the whole time, other than touch ups to the topsides where the fenders had scuffed the top coats.

My point was - and still is - $30k is an obscene amount of money to spend on a repaint. If it’s a show boat with a custom metallic flaked colour, sure, I could see that. But even the fella who initially mentioned that figure then said he only spent $16k on his.

N

[ausnp84]

Originally Posted by Chotu

The paint alone for my topsides on my cat (not the deck, just waterline to the "rail") cost $5,000 USD. That's sitting in the cans, unopened, not even Awlgrip or a marine paint, but a good 2 part linear polyurethane from the automotive industry.

$600 to paint a Catamaran is way, way off. They're big on surface area.

Wow. I use Jotun XP two part polyurethane. Primer, tie coat and high gloss top coat won’t even come close to $5k USD.

Clearly didn’t read my follow up post but thanks for your thoughts.

N