Getting Rigging Done on a Budget. Ideas?

[thunderhoof]

Going for best prices is a great idea for parts and installation but you need someone knowledgeable to sign off (figuratively) on the integrity and safety of the finished job. I have found that there are many smart and experienced people around the boatyards, riggers and sailors in any area. Ask around and find someone who others recommend. It should be a small portion of your cost to get them involved. Some rough, blowy night you will be glad you did.

[Nani Kai]

Originally Posted by Cpt Mark

My personal belief is that every crew member should be able to handle the boat in an emergency by themselves so I agree with an electric winch. I've used the right angle milwaulkies and they are heavy and not that easy if your'e not strong to to use. An electric winch is made for one thing and it does it very well. I used to run a 55' cat on SF Bay and handled all the lines with only 1 electric winch and rope clutches .

+1 on not using the Milwaukee right angle drill as a primary winch tool. Not only are they heavy but you have to find a place to stow them, ideally close at hand. This in itself can be challenging because you also want to keep them out of the weather. Then there's the "battery dying at just the wrong moment" problem. It can be a great back up tool for your electric windlass however, although there are relevant torque limitations to consider for larger boats with heavier ground tackle.

I read on this forum recently that automobile starter motors are often used to power electric sailboat winches. If this is the case (which I intend to explore further) then buying a used electric winch and a backup motor might be less expensive than buying new. I recently saw two used electric winches at Bacon Sails in Annapolis that looked in good shape and were reasonably priced. They also had a decent inventory in used ground tackle, sails, line, fenders, deck hardware, etc. Robb, who works there, has been a great help to me in locating "lightly" used items for our Leopard 39 and the sailmaker there (whose name escapes me for the moment) is extremely knowledgeable and could be a good resource for used sails.

Buying a used mast for a new sailboat seems questionable to me. I wouldn't want a hidden stress crack, metal fatigue or deteriorated fastener to reveal itself in a storm at night 300 miles from shore.

Everything on a sailboat depends on the standing rig and mast, including one's personal safety. My comfort zone would seek other places to save money. YMMV.

[Mr B]

Have you tried the graveyards in marina;s, Plenty of boats that are never going any where any more,
Buy the whole boat for peanuts, Truck it to the tip, Hire an excavator to reduce it to scrap and truck the scrap to the tip and your left with the mast and all the rigging off it,
They do have masts sitting on blocks down the back of the yards,
Its a matter of asking around,

[pbmaise]

Google term ANSI 54-3
Two per line eliminates turnbuckles
Use heavy duty galvanized thimbles
Buy dynema line sold for tow ropes for backstays
Use genuine Dynema line for wraps between 54-3 and go redundant

Use Crosby fittings and galvanized line for forestay

Expect some stretch if you don't implement a spring into back stay to absorb shock loads.

Eliminate the full baten main and use a gaff rig running the gaff pole up and down the sailtrack

Make own roller furler



soak line in synthetic linseed oil and paint thimbles

Sun dry

[Schapera]

You are dreaming if you think you can do this yourself. Pay the money and get it done PROFESSIONALLY. This is your rigging, not something cosmetic. It’s not a case of mix and match, this goes with that. This is ENGINEERING. When you are upside down in an F10 in the Atlantic you won’t be smiling about about the money you saved, that I can tell you.

[nofacey]

People build boats with rigs all the time.....there’s zero reason a handy person can’t fab a high quality rig.

Did my boat with SS wire & mechanical end terminals - dead easy, but the terminals are expensive. Patience on eBay etc will allow you to buy never used old stock cheap.......these components do not age.

With a cat I’d go to synthetic rigging, doing my own splices. Here’s one source for end terminals https://www.colligomarine.com

Good luck!

[HansChristian33]

Take it from a boat builder with 25 years experience your not going to get a cheap quality and safe rigging system at the level of sophistication you are looking for. You can get cheap, but it will be low quality and I wouldn't put my life in its hands. If you want quality safe rigging suitable for Ocean Passages plus in mast electric furling and electric winches capable of handling large headsails and you want it all installed by a professional with experience then 60K is cheap. Your life and that of your crew is not worth taking shortcuts with rigging. If 60k is too much then maybe the boat is a little bigger than ideal you could get something smaller and far safer for so much less.

[Mr B]

Good Quality Hydraulic swaging tool is around $600-00
Buy your stainless wire, brand new in 100 metre rolls or bigger, Bigger the roll, less waste,
Buy brand new swages, Stainless D shackles, Stainless Turnbuckles,

All can be bought at your local industrial, Nut and Bolt shop,

No Marinised Mark up,

[gulfislandfred]

You don't need to learn to weld aluminum, if you can find a shop or welder who will work by the hour.


You can learn to cut and fit the aluminum parts, ready to weld, and have the welder assemble them. Even at shop rates, a half hour of welding will do most or all of your rig. Wood tools cut aluminum easily: Table saw, band saw, sawzall. Wear eye protection, use fine tooth, high quality blades (and don't use them for fine woodwork after aluminum)



There are used masts, furlers, and sails around. Check with the shops that set up best of the local racers. They may have used masts, furlers, etc, or know who does.


Boats are being scrapped all the time. Check the big boat yards, find out who does demolition. (Don't take a whole boat for free, along with responsibility for disposal, unless you really know what you're doing! Buy the parts you need, and let someone else take care of the carcass.)



Wire is cheap, and so are swaged on ends at industrial rigging shops. You can often find Norseman type wire ends used, and make your own wires, or splice thimbles into your wire ends, or use industrial nico press type fittings. Lots of wire is used in industrial applications. Those ends are often regulated and engineered. Maybe stronger and more reliable than what we're used to.



Get going with what you can afford: 2 speed manual winches (try long handles for more leverage. If the jib is hard to crank in, you probably have too much sail out. Electric stuff is high maintenance) used sails, etc, and upgrade as you get smarter about what you need and where to find it.

[Icarus]

Originally Posted by Chotu

I'm doing some numbers on the catamaran.

The rig is the biggest single problem with the budget. I have professional quotes in the $60,000+ range for mast, sails and boom. This is an expense I'm trying to find ways to reduce so I can go with the cat.

I need a 60-65' spar, standard fractional rigging as most catamarans have, a boom, a furler for a big downwind sail and the self tacking jib. Plus I need all those sails. I can live without a rotating mast.

How can one go about finding all of this stuff used and getting it all to work together?

Also very easy sail handling is needed so my 90lbs girlfriend can handle sails if necessary. Electric winches maybe for that I'm thinking?

Also furling main would be greatly preferred to give better reefing control. Ie: just a washcloth of main out in the worst of the worst.

Where do I even begin to try to put something like this together outside of the normal channels of just dropping $60,000-$75,000 and having a rig apear on my boat?

I build a number of yacht masts, generally you can buy fittings ready made for the chosen profile. In some countries the wont sell you a plain mast extrusion, the claim that if there is a mast or rigging failure the supplier is liable. Yeah really?
If you don't have the space, the tools or know how then its better to get the mast done by a company.
If you want hi spec racing sails then the sky is the limit,
second hand sails might not fit and need to be recut.
I had mine done in Hong Kong, very good quality ( I can hear the outcries already)
60 grand for mast and rigging, sails, winches, furler, taxes is probably close to the mark.
Just shop around a bit you might get lucky and find a second hand mast and boom.

[Dave9111]

60K for a rig and sails seems like a ridiculous amount of money.


If you can't make it yourself and you can't afford 60K, why not consider skipping the rig and use the boat as a power cat.



60K can buy a lot of fuel!

[Tupaia]

Originally Posted by Dave9111

60K for a rig and sails seems like a ridiculous amount of money.


If you can't make it yourself and you can't afford 60K, why not consider skipping the rig and use the boat as a power cat.



60K can buy a lot of fuel!

From a purely economic stand point this makes good sense. With a sailing cat you are likely to have 2 engines that require at least some fuel and definitely maintenance. Performance sails last 2 maybe 3 years and are $20-30000 add to this $60000 for the rig. A power cat optimised for speeds of 8-10knots is capable of returning 1litre/NM and even with diesel at $1 a litre you will be in pocket. $80-90000 is three times round the globe and probably the equivalent of 15- 20 years of use. Add to this the maintenance of the standing rigging alone, three shrouds is roughly $3000 and diamonds another $1000, replacement every 10 years that's 400Nm a year at $1/Nm on rigging alone.

A lot of cats do not have good sailing performance anyway and if they were monos they would be considered as motor-sailors.

[Chotu]

Originally Posted by Tupaia

From a purely economic stand point this makes good sense. With a sailing cat you are likely to have 2 engines that require at least some fuel and definitely maintenance. Performance sails last 2 maybe 3 years and are $20-30000 add to this $60000 for the rig. A power cat optimised for speeds of 8-10knots is capable of returning 1litre/NM and even with diesel at $1 a litre you will be in pocket. $80-90000 is three times round the globe and probably the equivalent of 15- 20 years of use. Add to this the maintenance of the standing rigging alone, three shrouds is roughly $3000 and diamonds another $1000, replacement every 10 years that's 400Nm a year at $1/Nm on rigging alone.

A lot of cats do not have good sailing performance anyway and if they were monos they would be considered as motor-sailors.

I do wrestle with the economics of this. It makes WAY more sense to just motor everywhere.

However, your analysis does start to fall short when you get to talking about crossing oceans. The amount of fuel needed to make it across increases the weight dramatically and ruins your speed and economy numbers. Then again, how often do you need to cross oceans?

One thing you're way off on is performance sailing. With dagger boards and better numbers than a Gunboat, this is a sailing BEAST. It'll sail much better than almost anything else out there and eat monos for breakfast. This is a pure sailing boat. That's why it's hard to go power as well, even if it's the logical choice financially.

You can't make blanket statements about sailing cats any more than you can make them about sailing monohulls based on an Azimut power boat monohull. Ever boat is different. Bad idea to generalize that stuff.

[Dave9111]

I think that crossing oceans is an whole different topic and requires a lot of different gear. Watermakers, satellite comm equipment, etc.



It seems like there are a growing number of power cruising cats out there.



Sailing a big boat requires significant strength and skill. Skipping the sails and just going with twin engines makes things a lot easier and cheaper. Plus a lot less complexity. Yet due to the twin engines, you still have some redundancy in case of an engine issue.

[Chotu]

Originally Posted by Dave9111

I think that crossing oceans is an whole different topic and requires a lot of different gear. Watermakers, satellite comm equipment, etc.



It seems like there are a growing number of power cruising cats out there.



Sailing a big boat requires significant strength and skill. Skipping the sails and just going with twin engines makes things a lot easier and cheaper. Plus a lot less complexity. Yet due to the twin engines, you still have some redundancy in case of an engine issue.

Couldn't agree more. It's a difficult thing to contemplate. Lots of advantages to staying with just the engines, though top speed wouldn't be one of them.

I am currently sailing a 50' monohull. My opinion is it requires decades of skill to handle the sails well. Lots of trial and error on small boats first. I've paid my dues there and never have any problems with a rig. However, the work involved in deploying, putting away and adjusting the sails can be a lot. Especially since I'm essentially single handing no matter who is on the boat with me.

That's why I'm talking about electric winches or furling systems. To reduce that workload.