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Old 25-09-2008, 08:32   #16
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Monohull option-

Our CSY 33 has been a GREAT boat to learn on. We bought a '79 CSY because of the interior room and galley and it is built like a tank! We have run aground, fouled anchors, had exciting docking experiences, and the CSY has never shown the worse for wear.

We have absolutely no regrets about buying the monohull, it was relatively cheap and allowed us to figure out what we really want in a boat.

I've seen three for sale for less than 40k on yachtworld. Chances are you could buy one for 20-25k and it would serve you well while you're learning to sail and banging into things.

So, a monohull or cheap cat to learn is not a bad way to start (save all that pretty gelcoat on the expensive boat).

JC
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Old 25-09-2008, 08:44   #17
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Wow you are right, there are a ton of CSYs on there for reasonably cheap. There is a nice looking one for 50k CDN here in BC! Wish I had a sold house now so I could get it surveyed and check it out, DOH!

But I'm sure something will come up once I start actually looking to buy in a few years.
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Old 26-09-2008, 14:43   #18
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Wow you are right, there are a ton of CSYs on there for reasonably cheap. There is a nice looking one for 50k CDN here in BC! Wish I had a sold house now so I could get it surveyed and check it out, DOH!

But I'm sure something will come up once I start actually looking to buy in a few years.
Patience is a virtue!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!, or so I am told
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Old 26-09-2008, 14:59   #19
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I hesitated to post in this thread. Alas, with all due respect to Gemini owners, these boats just aren't in the same class as a Catalac or a Prout when it comes to crossing oceans. Nor were they ever claimed to be by the manufacturer. Both of the older British boats mentioned are much heavier than the Gemini for the given length and were designed to take a pounding at the expense of performance.

I've been on many Geminis as there are several in my marina at any given time. I suggest you do the same and come to your own conclusions.

For a coastal boat they are terriffic. Lots of room and very quick. I would suggest a survey with particular detail to the hulls.
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Old 27-09-2008, 13:08   #20
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Many of these, including Gemini's are really out of my range. I think I would like a multihull but in my very limited experiance, I liked monohulls as well. For 50-70k though you can't get much of a multihull.

It looks like a smaller mono may be in my future, but I've got years to research and decide
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Old 27-09-2008, 16:45   #21
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I hesitated to post in this thread. Alas, with all due respect to Gemini owners, these boats just aren't in the same class as a Catalac or a Prout when it comes to crossing oceans. Nor were they ever claimed to be by the manufacturer. Both of the older British boats mentioned are much heavier than the Gemini for the given length and were designed to take a pounding at the expense of performance.

I've been on many Geminis as there are several in my marina at any given time. I suggest you do the same and come to your own conclusions.

For a coastal boat they are terriffic. Lots of room and very quick. I would suggest a survey with particular detail to the hulls.
"Same class"? Do you mean the fact they are still being manufactured and sold?

Odd to portray excess weight as a desirable characteristic in a cat, I guess we could strap a couple of lead keels on and improve things.

Strength concerns are a different matter that were alluded to earlier, although the term "lightly built" was used. I'm not aware of a Gemini that has fallen apart without hitting something, same as any other boat might.

The hulls and bridgedeck are a single, monocoque layup, solid fiberglass, chemically bonded to the deck (also a single layup with some wood core to save weight) and bolted every 4". The interior is also a one piece mold.

This is very strong, and, if anything, too heavy for much speed. The hardware is all name brand, Selden boom, mast and furling, Lewmar winches etc. Who knows what you'll get on a Prout, the way they were burning through suppliers towards the end.

A valid criticism of the Gemini is a low carrying capacity for long trips, especially for more than two people. Some of this can be offset (watermaker instead of extra water etc.) but who cares? For the money it would cost to buy the next bigger boat, how many times can you ship a Gemini across an ocean via Yachtwise? Instead of carrying so much extra food, you can afford to eat out more often. It'll fit in the French canals, who'd want to cook on a trip like that?

To the original poster, don't give up - here's one for $40k on yachtworld
http://tinyurl.com/527glm I don't know anything about it, just that it may be in your price range.

Cheers.
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Old 27-09-2008, 18:22   #22
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"Same class"? Do you mean the fact they are still being manufactured and sold? .
No I mean comparing these to boats that have twice the glass content is disingenuous. Brand new Geminis have decks that are trampolines compared to the boat's I mentioned. It's like comparing a chevy to a Hummer.

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"Odd to portray excess weight as a desirable characteristic in a cat, I guess we could strap a couple of lead keels on and improve things. .
If you want to race on Saturday night, I'd join you on your Gemini. If you want to sail to England, we'll take mine, if you don't mind. I'll assure you it's safe as it was sailed across the Atlantic already. Prouts and Catalacs have made countless Ocean crossings, Geminis precious few.

Boats are designed with different purposes and design goals. Geminis are a good boat for their intended purpose. Crossing oceans wasn't a design goal.

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Strength concerns are a different matter that were alluded to earlier, although the term "lightly built" was used. I'm not aware of a Gemini that has fallen apart without hitting something, same as any other boat might..
I never said that. However, the man who designed and built the Gemini took one of his first 105's on a much publisized ocean crossing to the London boat show. His comments after the crossing were the basis for my comments. If Tony won't ever do it again, neither should anyone else with a Gemini.

While I can appreciate the pride you have in your boat, and am sorry you felt you had to defend them, I stand by my remarks. I've been on too many Geminis not to.
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Old 29-09-2008, 23:40   #23
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No I mean comparing these to boats that have twice the glass content is disingenuous. Brand new Geminis have decks that are trampolines compared to the boat's I mentioned. It's like comparing a chevy to a Hummer.
I didn't compare any boats, you did! The original poster specifically requested info on the Gemini, your contribution was to compare it, unfavorably, to your Catalac. I posted some facts about the Gemini build/strength. I still think that citing weight as a defining safety factor is not only at odds with current multihull design philosophy, it's keelboat logic. Following this route, steel is the only way to build a boat!

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If you want to race on Saturday night, I'd join you on your Gemini. If you want to sail to England, we'll take mine, if you don't mind. I'll assure you it's safe as it was sailed across the Atlantic already. Prouts and Catalacs have made countless Ocean crossings, Geminis precious few.
If I wanted to race, I'd buy a race boat, probably a tri. The Gemini is no race boat, it's too heavy. It's a great cruising boat, many have crossed oceans - West coast or Mexico to Hawaii is routine.

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I never said that.
I never said, nor implied, that you did.

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While I can appreciate the pride you have in your boat, and am sorry you felt you had to defend them, I stand by my remarks. I've been on too many Geminis not to.
You're entitled to your opinion. Everyone goes for the boat they can afford that best meets their needs.

Cheers
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Old 30-09-2008, 22:32   #24
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There are actually some pretty damn affordable seeming snowgooses out there. Older ones of course, but I've heard that they are definitely blue water cats.

This one is from 1972 for 50 grand, but if it was turn key condition could be a good thing once you haggled them down

1972 Prout Snowgoose Sail Boat For Sale - www.yachtworld.com

Maybe in a couple years the american economy will be so low I will be able to buy a very nice newer Prout blue water cat for 50k Never know!!
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Old 01-10-2008, 13:31   #25
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Anathema, the Prout Snowgoose is indeed a 'blue water' boat. Notwithstanding Islander's attack on both Prouts and Catalacs, a large number have and continue to be used to safely cross oceans and to circumnavigate. I would suggest that the number that are still being used for offshore passages is particularly impressive when one considers that many of them are now over 25 years old.

Although Islander accuses Rick of suggesting that 'excess' weight is desireable, Rick did not describe the boats as being 'excessively' heavy. Rather, Rick pointed out that the construction of Prouts and Catalacs was heavier than the Gemini. All three boats are constructed by traditional methods (layed up by hand in female molds) using traditional materials (frp), and the relatively lighter weight of the Gemini was achieved by means of a thinner, or 'lighter' lamination schedule and thinner, or 'lighter' standing rigging, etc. Make no mistake, the Gemini did not shed pounds by going to higher tech materials such as carbon fibre, or by high tech construction methods such infusion molds, or 'scrimp' technology.etc.

And while Islander is correct that lighter displacement is advantageous to performance in a cat, there are some real world reasons to prefer the construction of the Prouts and Catalacs over the Geminis for long distance cruising. Firstly, increased displacement reduces the risk of capsize. Secondly, a heavier displacement boat is generally impacted less by the addition of a comparable weight of spares and supplies (for example, if you add 2000 lbs. of gear/spares/supplies to a 10,000 lb. cat, there is a 20 % increase; if you carry the same on a 5000 lb boat, there is a 40% increase). Thirdly, the thicker standing rigging is not only heavier, it is also stronger (all three boats use 1x19 stainless wire). Fourthly, the 'heavier' or thicker lamination schedule means a hull that is less susceptible to being holed or cracked in a collision or grounding. Fifthly, the 'heavier' lamination schedule also means less 'flex' and accordingly, as confirmed by my admittedly rather limited personal observations, less of a tendancy for stress cracks.

Yes, it is true that both Catalac and the builders of the original Prout are no longer in business. I fail to see, however, how that relates to their ability to cross oceans. In any event, if commercial success is relevant to the issue at hand, it is worth remembering that at that time that Prout was building the Snowgoose, they had built more cruising cats than any other company in the world.

As to name-brand hardware on the Gemini and Islander's comment 'who knows what you'll get with a Prout' - why, you will. If it is not listed, you can inquire about the brand for the winches, blocks, mast etc.; or, you can just look for yourself. In any event, since the boats you are considering are older, it is also likely that most of the standing and running rigging will have been replaced over the years.

Understand that I rather like the Gemini. It is just that, at your budget and for your intended use, I think you would be better off looking for a good example of a Prout or Catalac than the Gemini.

Brad
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Old 01-10-2008, 16:05   #26
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Sir,
sir,
I don't think you should be putting 50 percent of ypur budget into the boat. Look a 33% tops.
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Old 01-10-2008, 18:02   #27
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I only expect to have $150,000 in the bank after selling my house/vehicles/etc. I would be a LOT more comfortable with 80 grand in the bank after buying/outfitting my boat than I would be with 40 grand. I do plan on supplementing that by working about 2 days a week on the internet while down there but I would still be a lot more comfortable with a big nest egg in case something bad happened.
So you are saying that your best case "big nest egg" (towards retirement and emergency) would be $80k with no permanent residence. How old are you? Not knowing anything else I sorta agree with witzgall.
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Old 02-10-2008, 08:27   #28
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I have income working online of roughly 2-3 thousand a month between me and my fiancee, working about 2-3 days a week. I would just rather sail around the west coast of central america, then the caribean, than live here on a crappy 9-5 job that I don't enjoy.

So if I can buy a boat for roughly 50k, spend 10k on refits, and have 80k left, and work while cruising..I should have most of that at the end of my cruise.

So my "Big nest egg" is the 80k in the bank, PLUS maybe 40k worth of catamaran, plus a guaranteed Canadian pension. (1200-1400/month adjusted for inflation). Doesn't seem like such a bad retirement. Me and the wifey could cruise on that budget if shes getting that too

EDIT: Also, 60k of my 150k budget is 40 percent. Pretty close to 33.
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Old 02-10-2008, 09:34   #29
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I think it would be a rare purchase where a cruiser gets away form the dock spending 10k or less on a refit before setting sail. Friends or ours bought a VERY complete 35' Southern Cross, and still spent over 15k. Before they left for thier cruising adventure.

We bought our 20k boat, and have put in at least 15k so far. New hatches, new running rigging, new electronics. It adds up fast. If we want to go cruising full time, it will take another 10 K at least. You need a good sized contingent.

I am not saying that you cannot do it with the numbers you mentioned. You can. But I read here and other places about how you will spend money in ways that you can not possibly anticipate, and guess what? They were so very right. You will not think of everything, and those unthought of items willl cost $$$. It is the way of the sea.

What type of work will you be doing to earn the $$$? I hear you about ths 9-5. It sucks.

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Old 02-10-2008, 10:08   #30
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I think you are set up pretty well to do it. You can always justify waiting until you are set up better. As mentioned, there are a lot of good boats out there at reasonable prices. One interesting thing you find when comparing say a 37 footer to a 42 footer.... all you really get is an extra head in traditionaly layed out boats. How many bathrooms do you need in a small space? For two people you will have just as good a time in a 35 footer as something much larger.
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