Gemini Catamarans - Problems

[sandy daugherty]

Rick, they make diving boards out of fiberglass. They wiggle and dip too. For years and years and years! A springy deck is NOT a sign of imminent failure. If anything, they indicate that the structure isn't heavier than it needs to be.
Now if it creaks, moans and cracks, that's something to consider. If it gurgles, you have a problem.

[Therapy]

Originally Posted by sandy daugherty

Rick, they make diving boards out of fiberglass. They wiggle and dip too. For years and years and years! A springy deck is NOT a sign of imminent failure. If anything, they indicate that the structure isn't heavier than it needs to be.
Now if it creaks, moans and cracks, that's something to consider. If it gurgles, you have a problem.

........

[GordMay]

Originally Posted by sandy daugherty

... A springy deck is NOT a sign of imminent failure...
... Now if it creaks, moans and cracks, that's something to consider. If it gurgles, you have a problem.

There's a difference between a flexible & resilient (springy) structure which is supple enough to withstand great stress without damage, and an un-sound (damaged or under-engineered) deck that’s spongy or mushy.

[Tropic Cat]

Originally Posted by sandy daugherty

Rick, they make diving boards out of fiberglass. They wiggle and dip too.

Thankfully I won't be sailing a diving board anytime soon.

Originally Posted by sandy daugherty

For years and years and years! A springy deck is NOT a sign of imminent failure. If anything, they indicate that the structure isn't heavier than it needs to be.
Now if it creaks, moans and cracks, that's something to consider. If it gurgles, you have a problem.

I respectfully disagree. I don't know anyone who would purposely buy a boat who's fiberglass layups are spongy by design. In fact, we all look for exactly the opposite. I would suggest that in an effort to control construction costs in these boats the result, while perhaps not dangerous, certainly isn't reassuring. I can't envision how this could be perceived as a "design benefit" under any circumstance.

On the other hand, if you know some folks who desire boats with spongy decks, refer them to me! I can hook them up with some terrific boats at a substantial discount.

But please hurry, as these boats are due to be recycled at any time!!

[sandy daugherty]

Not knowing the specific boat you refer to, I still object to calling all Geminis poorly designed or sloppily built. Using the term "spongy" is derogatory, leading a reader to believe there's water in the core. The term resilient (as Gord suggests ) serves better.

In this forum, we are kind to all boats, for the simple reason that every boat ever built can perfectly fit someone's needs. Slamming a boat because we have different standards of what is right and proper is extremely short-sighted.

Rick, if you took offense at my suggestion that a Catalac is too heavy, I appologize. You clearly don't think so. I've weighed as much as 300 pounds and there are times when a steel girder feels "spongy" to me! Horses for courses.

Let quit disparaging Geminis. There are a very large number of good sailors enjoying them, and they don't come here because they are tired of hearing about the same tired old tales. We don't have a psychic need to dump on someone else to feel better about ourselves.

[Therapy]

Originally Posted by sandy daugherty

Let quit disparaging Geminis. There are a very large number of good sailors enjoying them, and they don't come here because they are tired of hearing about the same tired old tales. We don't have a psychic need to dump on someone else to feel better about ourselves.

Whew!
Thanks.

They do have a "place of their own" on Yahoo I hear.
I may well be there soon!

PS: If they were that bad then there would not be over 1000 of them to date!!!

[Tropic Cat]

Originally Posted by sandy daugherty

Not knowing the specific boat you refer to, I still object to calling all Geminis poorly designed or sloppily built. Using the term "spongy" is derogatory, leading a reader to believe there's water in the core. The term resilient (as Gord suggests ) serves better.

If I see a design issue with a boat, and someone on this forum asks for opinions. I'll give it. I hope people would do the same. As it was, I put this issue as diplomatically as possible until you repeated pressed the point.

I've been on more Geminis than I can remember. From old ones to brand new boats. Several years ago, I actually set out to buy one. The issue I speak about are common to ALL of these boats within the date range I specified. It is a DESIGN issue I'm referring to, not a single "bad boat".

If you would like to refute my posts, by all means refute away, although in this case, if there was any doubt in my mind I would have kept my mouth shut.

The way things are done in the forum is that a moderator will PM a member if they have an issue. I've received no such PM, so my post is apparently an issue with you, not this forum. I certainly don't need advice from you on what I should or shouldn't say. While I'm on this subject I'd really appreciate if you refrained from offering advice, to me, as to how I write my posts.

Frankly it offends me that a forum member would knowingly allow known issues on any vessel to be buried out of "kindness to all boats".

That's simply a ridiculous statement. People come here for advice, not a whitewash.

[Therapy]

Originally Posted by Tropic Cat

If I see a poor boat design, and someone on this forum asks for opinions. I'll give it.

That's simply a ridiculous statement. People come here for advice, not for a whitewash.

I am sort of in the middle of this.

I appreciate your opinion too Rick. I really do. I have read your stuff for years and your site (pretty nice I must say) and respect your opinion.

I have researched boats for over 3 years now.

I think the Gemini will do us fine for what we have planned for the near future.

One thing I did not (no way Hose') want to do was get a boat, no matter how good and spend a year or so sweating over/under/in/around it to have it "usable" for me. Nor did I want to pay someone to do all that stuff and then have to "fix" it later.

I really want a Manta but since we are not ready to move out and onto it it just is too much. And now I am reading the Manta is crap too. And the FPs (thin and lightly built), and the Leopards (balsa below WL - Boo,Hiss) and the Lagoons (big vertical windows - Augh!) etc, etc, etc.

Seems the only really good cats are really old and will last another lifetime. But not for me. I am 6'4" and need/want something I think I will be OK on.

The boat I want - FP hull, Admiral interior, Lagoon "windows", Privilege rig, and a Manta cockpit and oh yea - lifting drive legs. Man, would that be the boat for me.

[Tropic Cat]

Originally Posted by Therapy

I am sort of in the middle of this.

I appreciate your opinion too Rick. I really do. I have read your stuff for years and your site (pretty nice I must say) and respect your opinion..

I appreciate that as I certainly meant no offense. I understand your reasoning, and can appreciate it. My only motivation is that you enter into this purchase with your eyes wide open. Too often emotion clouds reasoning where our boats are concerned.

[Southern Star]

Although I rarely do so (and am as opinionated as virtually anyone on this site), in this instance I am taking the middle ground. As the owner of an older British-built cat (1994 Solaris Sunstream 40), I tend to agree with Rick's comments concerning the quality of construction of cats done to Lloyd's 100 A1 unlimited offshore standards. That being said, I can also appreciate that they tend to be both heavier and slower than their more lightly built counterparts. As Sandy rightly points out, different horses for different courses.

Are there reasons to buy a Gemini, new or used? Many.

1. The performance in all but heavy conditions will tend to be superior: she will sail faster on all points of sail and she will point higher than older British cats of a comparable size. (Especially if one uses the boards effectively on different points of sail).
2. The accomodation will be superior to comparably priced, but older British cats.
3. She will have a more modern and, to many, more attractive appearance.
4. The newer ones had a molded headliner, doing away with the glued on vinyl that was used in the earlier models (and in the typical older British cat). These will inevitably need to be replaced as the glue fails and they start to sag.
5. There is undoubtedly a larger demand for used Gemini's, at least in the USA, than there is for older British cats. This should help when it comes to re-listing the boat.


Are there negatives associated with the choice of a Gemini? Of course.
1. The Gemini will be more lightly built without resorting to exotic materials. The result is an increased tendancy to develop stress cracks (and not just in theory, as witnessed by many including yours truly).
2. The boards, while tending to improve performance, require increased vigilance and maintenance. Something, by the way, which I would have no hesitation in accepting in exchange for the resultant performance/shoal draft capabilities.
3. She will have less of a reputation/history as an offshore boat. Indeed, even the manufacturer calls the earlier ones coastal cruisers.
4. She has very little bridgedeck clearance aft - the result will tend to be increased pounding over some of the earlier British boats.
5. The plexiglass windows will need sporadic replacement, unlike the typical tempered glass portlights on the British cats.
6. The visibility forward is compromised by having to look through the interior of the boat (and this is especially true as the windows start to age).
7. The side-decks tend to be narrower, making movement fore and aft a little more challenging, especially in heavy conditions.
8. The standing rigging, stantions, bow pulpit and pushpit all tend to be of a lighter guage than the British boats.

In the end, however, one cannot fail to recognize that the Gemini has been a huge success because it offers a great deal of boat for the money. If someone is interested in a boat on a budget solely for inshore/coastal/Bahamas/Caribbean cruising with a limited number of crew/guests, she would make a fine choice (assuming, as with any boat, that she undergoes a rigorous survey).

Brad

[Therapy]

Originally Posted by Tropic Cat

Too often emotion clouds reasoning where our boats are concerned.

I think it is each and every time, without exception.

If I was to think about marriage again.......well........lets not.

[Therapy]

Originally Posted by Southern Star

In the end, however, one cannot fail to recognize that the Gemini has been a huge success because it offers a great deal of boat for the money. If someone is interested in a boat on a budget solely for inshore/coastal/Bahamas/Caribbean cruising with a limited number of crew/guests, she would make a fine choice (assuming, as with any boat, that she undergoes a rigorous survey).

Brad

That is where I am. The Gulf of Mexico is one of the most benign bodies of water on the planet. If I were to "take off" I would do so in a "sturdy" "heavy" boat.

I had a Westerly Nimrod way back when and was impressed (as were others) with it's abilities. Heavy but not that slow. Since that boat (and reading Hornblower ) I have always admired the English and what they had to build in order to handle their waters. Back then being 6'4" did not matter. Now it does.

How rigorous a survey do you think should be given to a boat that was commissioned in Sept. of 08?

[sandy daugherty]

Perhaps a little more rigourous than the commissioning survey!

[cdennyb]

so...

Sandy.... why do you have a PDQ and NOT a Gemini?

[CaptNery]

I am in the process of replacing both centerboards on a 1996 Gemini M. The boat is on dry dock, I got some instructions from Gemini, but I can not see how to access the other side of the pivot bolt to replace the nut and washer. It also took me some time to find the bolt since is hidden by the door frames (which I will have to remove) from the master stateroom and the head. Any information, advise and hopefully some pictures will be greatly appreciated. I am in the Fort Lauderdale area in Florida and if you have done this, are free and can help, I am willing to pay for your assistance.