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Old 04-09-2008, 00:52   #46
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looked over a couple I'm a little worried about their resale value though, as it appears some of the builders are using cheap imported plywoods or downgrade unseasoned hoop pine ply

Interesting assumptions Catty.

In our original search, we canned a Kesall design (only just floating) for much the same timber reason, does this mean we have 'Got to be a worry' about Dereckís masterpieces . Also seen a few Simpsons in similar order, does this mean I have 'Got to be a worry' about Rogersís masterpieces too .

Whats wrong with cheap imported plywoods, I wish I had gone that way. Again, we can only assume from your assumptions that if its cheap and imported its 'Got to be a worry' . Does that mean that if we import foam, balsa, Meranti, glass or even resin, we too will be tarred too.

A piece of raw hoop pine ply was seen on a window hatch of Spirited 380 when it first came out, has this 'Got to be a worry', because Craig wasnít worried and nor were the two orders they got as a result .

Bottom line is you get what you pay for.
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Old 04-09-2008, 03:03   #47
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cheap and quick?

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Interesting assumptions Catty.

In our original search, we canned a Kesall design (only just floating) for much the same timber reason, does this mean we have 'Got to be a worry' about Dereckís masterpieces . Also seen a few Simpsons in similar order, does this mean I have 'Got to be a worry' about Rogersís masterpieces too .

Whats wrong with cheap imported plywoods, I wish I had gone that way. Again, we can only assume from your assumptions that if its cheap and imported its 'Got to be a worry' . Does that mean that if we import foam, balsa, Meranti, glass or even resin, we too will be tarred too.

A piece of raw hoop pine ply was seen on a window hatch of Spirited 380 when it first came out, has this 'Got to be a worry', because Craig wasnít worried and nor were the two orders they got as a result .

Bottom line is you get what you pay for.


yep, you get what you pay for. Sadly a lot of the newbys building boats don't realize that the cost of materials for the hulls is only the start of the spending process. Irrespective of what design or materials you choose the cost of the fit-out, the rig, the sails, the motors, the paint , the windows etc etc is similar for similar sized boats. Unfortunately if you've chosen to build the boat out of cheap substandard materials ,then the builder is going to be battling to sell for a reasonable return. With the easy's marketed as quick,simple and cheap to build for the novice,some easy builders are obviously choosing cheap substandard plywoods, I hope that this does not damage the resale for those that do the right thing. Its pretty difficult to tell whats under a couple of layers of paint. Up until now some easy's have comanded good resale prices, it will be interesting to see if this continues,I suspect time will tell.
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Old 05-09-2008, 16:49   #48
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cats

Hi guys,

Sorry, haven't had time to read over all the post, but these pics are for Joakim.

best,
Jay
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Old 06-09-2008, 04:51   #49
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Hi guys,

Sorry, haven't had time to read over all the post, but these pics are for Joakim.

best,
Jay
Just for me...thanks. But i will take a look at the boat soon. What is the weight of the boat?
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Old 06-09-2008, 06:31   #50
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Greetings to all from Portugal!

This is my first post here.....I have been reading these forums for quite a while and it is amazing how much good information can be found and how high % of constructive comments.It has helped me a lot in slowly seeing some light at the end of the tunnel.My aim is to make the right choice of boat design,materials,price for what i would be using the boat.My project is to build a cat for chartering to a maximum of 4 people + 2 crew(me and my partner), mainly diving oriented.My main concerns are payload, performance, size.
Production boats are out of the question since their price especially here in the E.U is astronomical and performance is questionable.I loved the condomaran expression.

I have looked at several designs and the schionning ones are the most appealing to atm but others have very valid ideas too.I found the pacific multihulls kit some days ago and i found it very interesting.Has anyone looked at this concept?I like the simple straight panels and deck construction + the premoulded wine shape hulls which give some extra volume.Probably there might be some windage and aesthetic issues but as i will be catering to guests i find that volume and payload is a big issue.I am waiting to see their 50 feet kit but i guess it should be similar to the 40 feet kit.

The kit designer is Mark Stephens which has worked long time with the schionnings so he might be bringing some experience with those designs with him.Anyone know his reputation as a boat designer?

Depending on cost i might be considering building the kit in Thailand or in Australia.If in Thailand i will leave this to a boatyard with some reputation.He is starting to build a 1480 waterline modification right now.In Australia i would look into the option of building the boat myself with some hired people that understand someting about kit building as i never build a boat before.Thats why i found the pacific hull concept interesting because of fewer joints between panels so quicker building overall and easier to stay within the weight estimate.Also i liked the polycore material and the puncture tests they show on their website.Has anyone worked with this stuff yet?Here is a link

Austrol - Polycore Honeycomb



I have another question which concerns payload.I get totally confused with those values.The schionnings comparison table says on a 1480 it has roughly 7000 displacement and 2000 payload.Does that mean the boat weighs 5000 without payload or 9000 loaded to max waterline?Also i never see what is included in those calcs of boat minus payload i.e anchors, chain, dinghy ..battery bank size, engine weight.It all seems a bit vague imo.On these light displacement cats i think every kilo is important.As i will have to fit a diving compressor and 5 to 6 full diving equipments even more so.Btw i am looking into electric compressor and a yanmar engine with the new 6KW generator option rather than fitting another generator to save weight.

Now another big question is budget.I know roughly the kit cost of the 50 feet kit which will be around 140k AUD.Since there are many out here who are building or have built what is your rough estimate on hardware costs without labour to fit a 50 kit.I know there are many factors to consider i.e engines,electronics etc but a roughly idea +- 20%.

Any ideas or suggestions are very welcome i.e smaller boat other design etc.I only envision starting this project in 2010 so i have time to get even more confused or to just drop the idea alltogether if the budget is too high.

Sorry if this post is a bit offtopic and too long and for my bad english.

cheers

Richard
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Old 06-09-2008, 16:07   #51
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richard I think you meen this polycore POLYCORE -HONEYCOMB- POLYCORE LIGHTWEIGHT POLYPROPYLENE HONEYCOMB BUILDING PANELS -POLYCORE -HONEYCOMB- PLASTIC HONEYCOMB POLYCORE POLYPROPYLENE HONEYCOMB POLYPROPYLENE HONEYCOMB PANELS POLYCORE POLYPROPYLENE HONEYCOMB CORE LIGHTWEIGHT PLASTIC PANELS
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Old 07-09-2008, 02:44   #52
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Originally Posted by Vamos View Post
I have another question which concerns payload.I get totally confused with those values.The schionnings comparison table says on a 1480 it has roughly 7000 displacement and 2000 payload.Does that mean the boat weighs 5000 without payload or 9000 loaded to max waterline?
Now another big question is budget.I know roughly the kit cost of the 50 feet kit which will be around 140k AUD.Since there are many out here who are building or have built what is your rough estimate on hardware costs without labour to fit a 50 kit.I know there are many factors to consider i.e engines,electronics etc but a roughly idea +- 20%.

Any ideas or suggestions are very welcome i.e smaller boat other design etc.I only envision starting this project in 2010 so i have time to get even more confused or to just drop the idea alltogether if the budget is too high.

Sorry if this post is a bit offtopic and too long and for my bad english.

cheers

Richard
Welcome to the forum Richard.

The quoted displacement usually refers to what the boat will weigh when it is floating at it's design waterline. What it will weigh unladen really depends on how it has been built. Usually Schionning designs seem to be able to be built so they can carry the quoted payloads.

If you feel that the payload is not sufficient, you can also check out the immersion rate. You might find that an extra 500kg will only cause the boat to sink 10 or 15mm below it's lines with pretty minimal impact on performance.

I'm building a 44 foot boat. The cost to fit her out looks like running to around $70,000 Au. But I'm building the rig myself, (buying mast section, boom and spreader section, but fabricating the other bits.) which will cost me around $6500 all up, where having a spar maker build and install it would cost around $30,000.

(Wish I knew how to make sails)

BTW your English is perfect, whereas my Portugese is non-existant.
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Old 07-09-2008, 03:48   #53
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I'm building a 44 foot boat. The cost to fit her out looks like running to around $70,000 Au. But I'm building the rig myself, (buying mast section, boom and spreader section, but fabricating the other bits.) which will cost me around $6500 all up, where having a spar maker build and install it would cost around $30,000.

(Wish I knew how to make sails)
This way is the best to build a boat if you have time, and place for the building. And a good girlfriend/wife
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Old 07-09-2008, 19:46   #54
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[quote=

I'm building a 44 foot boat. The cost to fit her out looks like running to around $70,000 Au. But I'm building the rig myself, (buying mast section, boom and spreader section, but fabricating the other bits.) which will cost me around $6500 all up, where having a spar maker build and install it would cost around $30,000.

(Wish I knew how to make sails)

BTW your English is perfect, whereas my Portugese is non-existant. [/quote]

A basic Oram 44 mast will cost around $28000.00 plus freight and stepping to order from a mast maker fully assembled including batten car system and furler.
This can be purchased in a kit form as well saving all the labour charges.
After your cost of the extrusion (mast, boom and spreader material) your added costs that you have to purchase are:
  • The standing rigging will cost around $3400.00
  • Halyards around $1400.00 incl snaps etc reef lines and out haul tackle webbing straps (Out haul and mainsheet)
  • Furler around $3200.00
  • Batten car system from $1500.00 to around $3500.00 depending on what you order.
  • Basic electrical around $700.00
When purchasing just the extrusion you then have to make the diamonds (Spreaders), head, gooseneck, inboard end and out board end for the boom, winch pads, spreader links, sheave boxes, hound fitting, heel plug, cap tangs and doubler plates, deflector lugs for spinnaker and screecher if required.

For around $10,000.00 you can have all this made for you ready for you to cut the holes and fasten into the mast fully anodized. (NO WELDING REQUIRED) as masts should not be welded where in compression i.e. hound and below.

It seems a lot of work to save not much money. In my view I would rather pay the $10000.00 and get a professional job. And if I had the money for the fully assembled mast would purchase that.
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Old 08-09-2008, 01:33   #55
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costs?

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Welcome to the forum Richard.

The quoted displacement usually refers to what the boat will weigh when it is floating at it's design waterline. What it will weigh unladen really depends on how it has been built. Usually Schionning designs seem to be able to be built so they can carry the quoted payloads.

If you feel that the payload is not sufficient, you can also check out the immersion rate. You might find that an extra 500kg will only cause the boat to sink 10 or 15mm below it's lines with pretty minimal impact on performance.

I'm building a 44 foot boat. The cost to fit her out looks like running to around $70,000 Au. But I'm building the rig myself, (buying mast section, boom and spreader section, but fabricating the other bits.) which will cost me around $6500 all up, where having a spar maker build and install it would cost around $30,000.

(Wish I knew how to make sails)

BTW your English is perfect, whereas my Portugese is non-existant.
44c, 70,000 to fit out. Sounds good. Does that include all soft furnishings, electrics, electronics,fridge, freezer, toilet ,shower, plumbing etc. or just the glassed in stuff painted.? I'm trying to get some idea of costings, Thanking you.
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Old 08-09-2008, 05:58   #56
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A basic Oram 44 mast will cost around $28000.00 plus freight and stepping to order from a mast maker fully assembled including batten car system and furler.
This can be purchased in a kit form as well saving all the labour charges.
After your cost of the extrusion (mast, boom and spreader material) your added costs that you have to purchase are:
  • The standing rigging will cost around $3400.00
  • Halyards around $1400.00 incl snaps etc reef lines and out haul tackle webbing straps (Out haul and mainsheet)
  • Furler around $3200.00
  • Batten car system from $1500.00 to around $3500.00 depending on what you order.
  • Basic electrical around $700.00
When purchasing just the extrusion you then have to make the diamonds (Spreaders), head, gooseneck, inboard end and out board end for the boom, winch pads, spreader links, sheave boxes, hound fitting, heel plug, cap tangs and doubler plates, deflector lugs for spinnaker and screecher if required.

For around $10,000.00 you can have all this made for you ready for you to cut the holes and fasten into the mast fully anodized. (NO WELDING REQUIRED) as masts should not be welded where in compression i.e. hound and below.

It seems a lot of work to save not much money. In my view I would rather pay the $10000.00 and get a professional job. And if I had the money for the fully assembled mast would purchase that.
to reply to this post, i built my own mast for my easy 37 13m as being the age i am( the wrong side of 50 to build a boat) i could not afford to buy one. now to build all the fittings as you mention and assemble the mast took approx 45 hrs or 1 weeks labour, the cost of the spar was 3000, the rigging 1500 and 2 coils of rope for halyards, the boom and fittings to make that around 900, the aluminium to make spreaders, crane mast base etc cost around 50$, so for me like 44 it made more sense to save the money to spend on other things

as for easys being built out of cheap ply, i know mine has all been constructed as per the designers instructions and i think it looks pretty cool, was fun to build and gives it plenty of bang for their buck
sean
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Old 08-09-2008, 06:36   #57
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to make the furler cost 700
sean
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Old 08-09-2008, 14:21   #58
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44c, 70,000 to fit out. Sounds good. Does that include all soft furnishings, electrics, electronics,fridge, freezer, toilet ,shower, plumbing etc. or just the glassed in stuff painted.? I'm trying to get some idea of costings, Thanking you.
That includes everything, except labour, which I'mproviding free of charge.

For the saloon furniture we just went and bought a modular lounge suite of suitable size, and I have copied the dimensions of the base into the boat using lighter materials. House furniture is reasonably priced, even for leather, whereas having an upholsterer do it would cost a fortune.

I've already bought the fridge and freezer, the cooktop, a 12' chartplotter, wind, speed, depth and engine instruments, the toilets, water tanks,& pumps, fuel tanks, electrical distribution panel, I've built holding tanks, mostly wired and plumbed the boat, and have one of the engines. (2nd hand with 20 hours)

I have all the winches, some of the blocks, some hatches and other hardware.

The mast, (16m x 235 section) boom, spreader section and battcar tracks were delivered yesterday for under $4000 all up, including delivery.

The hull and decks are structurally complete, the interior is all built, faired and painted, but no hardware is bolted in yet (will wait till all the exterior fairing and painting is finished)

The forebeam and composite chainplates are all in place, currently I'm building a targa/davit system for the dinghy and some solar panels, after which I will start to fair the exterior - a lot of which is already done.

So far the boat still owes me less than $100,000 Au all up.

There's still a lot to buy though......
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Old 08-09-2008, 16:05   #59
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Joakim,

Displacement is 6-ish lightly loaded and 8-ish max. Don't have the exact numbers in front of me, but that's the window.

Sean,

Can you give more details on the furler you're making? Was wondering how much of a pain it was to put one together - get the bits and such??

Best gents,
Jay in Beachmere
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Old 08-09-2008, 16:05   #60
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joakim...sent you a pm regarding those pics, not sure if you saw it??
- Jay
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