Fusion 40 or Spirited 380?

[Whimsical]

Originally Posted by Robertcateran

I f you are going for a cat, I like what they are doing with the Pacific Cat. Myself I am going for a harryproa

Now you are talking. If I build another boat that I am sure I will keep till I cark it it will be a proa just for 2 people.

44'cruisingcat
The initial gluing is only buttering small quantities of glue onto the bulkhead. All longitudinal joins are filled from the outside where gravity helps. Internally there is just a small cove and tape which was not difficult at all, except for the center one which was left until up the right way. I was waiting for some planks to show up and when installed all work is above waist hieght. Bending over to glue and tape like you are would have my back protesting very loudly in very short order, especially seeing the amount of thin panels Bob uses to form the shape. Out of curiosity how many are there, it looks like about 12. I doubt bending and reaching out to glue and tape the joins in the chamfer panel would be fun for me.

I believe each method has its posatives and negatives. Overall I wouldn't think there is more than a tiny difference, especially considering the hulls are such a small part of the total shell with furniture.

Mike

[44'cruisingcat]

12??? There are the keel panel, 2 bilge panels per side, then the sheer panels. Which I think is pretty much the same as the Wilderness. The chamfer panels are made in 2 parts, but both can be fitted and taped at the same time, either working from inside the hull or outside standing on the ground, whichever is you preference.

If you look at the photo it's clear that I didn't HAVE to be working in the hull, bending over. In fact I applied the tape and consolidated it from outside the hull, working on the ground. IIRC in the photo I was brushing over the peel ply.

[bayview]

Quote 44c "Initial gluing is done overhead, standing on drums. To move between bulkheads requires climbing down and back up again."


Seems like a lot of fairing going on and some scaffold as well. ( working on scumble after first turning)

[44'cruisingcat]

Sorry, I don't understand where your confusion comes from, but I guess I mustn't have explained myself clearly enough.

With an Oram build, the first glue fillets and tapes are done inside the hull, with the hull right side up. Then, when the inner hull tapes are complete, most of the bulkheads are installed. After that the hull is turned over and the outside glue joins and tapes are done, then the outside of the hull is faired.

With a Schionning, most of the inside tapes are done while the hull is upside down, working around the permanent and some temporary bulkheads, as are the outside tapes and the fairing. In my previous post the second two pictures referred to a Schionning build.

In both cases fairing is comparitively minimal - pretty much just blending in the tapes, and filling the weave of the glass. In both boats you'll need to stand on something to be able to reach the keel panel - you're looking at over 2 metres of hull depth in either case.

As Mike said previously, it's actually a relatively small proportion of the overall build. The real work starts when the hulls are joined, and in this area we're both pretty much in the same boat!

[bayview]

Originally Posted by 44'cruisingcat

As Mike said previously, it's actually a relatively small proportion of the overall build. The real work starts when the hulls are joined, and in this area we're both pretty much in the same boat!

Thankyou for you patience . As you both agree that the hulls are such a small portion of the overall job, why didn't you build round bilge hulls? I still remained confused on this point after reading the spirited 380 web site, where they stated...."Chines also create more work for the builder when taping and fairing. Fairing chines is much more involved and requires more skill than fairing a round-bilge boat which most people wouldn't realize."

[Whimsical]

Originally Posted by bayview

Thankyou for you patience . As you both agree that the hulls are such a small portion of the overall job, why didn't you build round bilge hulls? I still remained confused on this point after reading the spirited 380 web site, where they stated...."Chines also create more work for the builder when taping and fairing. Fairing chines is much more involved and requires more skill than fairing a round-bilge boat which most people wouldn't realize."

I think Craig may be just getting in a bit of marketing aimed at his father to suggest that the Spirited is far easier to build. They are but then they cost a lot more as well. In the case of the Spirited kit the round hull bottoms are moulded so not a lot of work.
A fully strip planked boat would be about 1,000 hours more than a flat sheet design such as the Wilderness or Oram if all other aspects are the same. From boats I have seen the strip planked ones end up with quite a lot of fairing compound whereas if the flat panel design is set up with some care it is very close to fair. The fairing compound just fills between the tapes or is tapered to nothing. The tapes can be used as a rough guide to when getting close. In my case I doubt that there is more than 2mm anywhere on the hull. When applying it a trowel can be scraped across from tape to tape putting very little excess on that then needs to be removed. The guy that helped me appy the fairing compound on the first hull put it on as if it was a strip planked build as this is what he specialises in. I did one side and he did the other. His side was two or three times the effort to sand. He saw the difference and was convinced and the second hull was done with little excess at all. The only difficult chine on a Wilderness is the top one one the outside of the hull. This has a very obtuse angle between the panels and is shaped to a quite round profile so it looks more like a curved join rather than a chine. I spent probably 4 or 5 hours getting it straight and even, not significant.

44 CC
Small correction. Only the longitudinal tapes were done upside down and they were done after the temps are removed. The bulkhead coves and tapes were done after being turned. Many people do ALL the coving and taping after the hulls are turned.

Mike

[freetime]

Why not change layout on a used catamaran?

Instead of a bed in the starboard hull(front), I would like to have a bathroom at the front like pic one. And why not change the other bathroom to a simular or with space for washermachine. And use the same
construction method as the spirited and fusion.

Why build a whole boat?

[Whimsical]

Originally Posted by freetime

Why not change layout on a used catamaran?

Instead of a bed in the starboard hull(front), I would like to have a bathroom at the front like pic one. And why not change the other bathroom to a simular or with space for washermachine. And use the same
construction method as the spirited and fusion.

Why build a whole boat?

If you can find a boat with the basics you want but the accomodation isn't quite there, then go for it.

Mike

[44'cruisingcat]

Originally Posted by bayview

Thankyou for you patience . As you both agree that the hulls are such a small portion of the overall job, why didn't you build round bilge hulls? I still remained confused on this point after reading the spirited 380 web site, where they stated...."Chines also create more work for the builder when taping and fairing. Fairing chines is much more involved and requires more skill than fairing a round-bilge boat which most people wouldn't realize."

This is another "Why did you choose what you chose?" question. There are always many reasons.

I looked at the Spirited 380 too. As always there are some positives with it, and some things I didn't like.

The prefabricated curved parts I liked, but you certainly do pay for them. At the time the Spirited 380 kit was $115,000 Au, the Oram 44C kit was $65,000Au. Remembering this is a much bigger boat.

For one thing I wanted to be able to beach the boat. The Spirited has saildrives, but no mini-keels which would make this difficult.

The Spirited comes with an internal fitout kit in Featherlight. I don't consider Featherlight to be a suitable boat-building material. It has a paper core which disintegrates if it gets wet. You could possibly substitute Duflex for the Featherlight, but that would add even more to the cost. I'm also not sure if Craig Schionning would allow it.

Craig Schionning was quite inflexible when it came to altering the layout, or in my case increasing headroom slightly.

Round bilge hulls have only slightly less wetted area than multichined hulls, but they also must have floors fitted to be livable. If you have a multichined hull that doesn't need floors then the difference in weight would most likely more than compensate for the difference in wetted area. Not having floors also allows a lower sheer height, thus less windage, for the same headroom.

What he says about fairing might apply to his kit, which has the curved parts moulded, but it certainly isn't true of every round bilge construction method.

As can be seen from the photo's of Xtra Chilli, the chines on the Oram are right down by the waterline or under it, so hardly impact on the aesthetics, except maybe to passing fish.

They are both performance cruising boats, but I liked the idea of getting speed by having a longer boat with a smaller sailplan as opposed to a shorter boat with a bigger sailplan. It feels safer to me.

Having said all of this, there are lots of Spirited kits being built, so obviously not everyone has the same priorities. For some simply being over 40 feet in length excludes the 44C, due to marina fees, which usually increase at the 12metre mark.

[44'cruisingcat]

Originally Posted by Whimsical

44 CC
Small correction. Only the longitudinal tapes were done upside down and they were done after the temps are removed. The bulkhead coves and tapes were done after being turned. Many people do ALL the coving and taping after the hulls are turned.

Mike

OK thanks. It's just that in one of your photo's the bulkhead which is visible is mostly glued in. The Wilderness builder I visited was gluing and taping his bulkheads while the boat was inverted, because he wanted to get "wet on wet" bond. He wasn't having much fun.

As we agree, building the hulls IS only a small proportion of the build. It does seem to take on a disproportionate amount of importance to potential builders, at the start, me included.

I'll add one thing though, a good friend is building a round bilge boat using vertical strip foam and glass. That is one HUGE job. He's been fairing the hulls all of this year, and he did a very careful and precise job setting up the foam to minimise fairing. I'd estimate the boat is going to take him at least 10,000 hours, for a 40 footer.

[freetime]

If it takes 6000 hours to build a catamaran, how long does each part to put together hull, furnishings, electronics, etc. An estimated?

Mostly of all kit´s use wood in plastic, and i know a company in uk they say NO wood inside plastic when building a boat. Scorpion Ribs

[bayview]

Originally Posted by 44'cruisingcat

The Spirited comes with an internal fitout kit in Featherlight. I don't consider Featherlight to be a suitable boat-building material. It has a paper core which disintegrates if it gets wet. You could possibly substitute Duflex for the Featherlight, but that would add even more to the cost. I'm also not sure if Craig Schionning would allow it.

.

44c I detect you are having a lend of me, so to speak.If featherlight is no good inside the boat sheethed in epoxy the balsa is a strange choice by you for beneath the waterline.

[Whimsical]

44
That short piece of cove was just a bit of left over Microspheres, can't waste it. I always try to have a plan as to where to put any left over resin, glue, filler or bog. Doing the coving inverted is a huge pain, figured that out pretty quick.
The featherlight is paper with a phenolic resin binder so it isn't that bad but it does need attention to ensure it is sealed properly. Quite a widely used material for furniture inside the cabin. Cockpit furniture should be more substantial.

Freetime
I am only part way into the hull, a bit over 1,000 hours. I would think probably about 2,000 total to finish to lockup with furniture basically installed. A few hundred hours to cut and fit doors, hatches etc. Then fairing, according to experienced others, anywhere from 500 to 1500 hours depending on how fussy one gets. I have already done both bums to above the outside visible chine and above the chamfer panel join as well as under the bridge deck, just the chamfer to bridgedeck join to finish the underside. Fitting out all the equipment shouldn't be too difficult as I am building in plenty of 4" x 2" ducting as I go. I think Schionnings estimate of 4,000 should be close to reasonable.

Have a look at Pauls build blog for an extremely detailed blow by blow description of a 12.3 Wilderness build.
Mahna Mahna

Mike

[northerncat]

to cut down fairing dramatically go with a spray bog, goes on nice and thick and EVEN, took me one week to completely refair 2 40 ft hulls to perfection, also build a ply boat only 2000hrs to finish instead of 4000
sean

[catty]

Originally Posted by northerncat

to cut down fairing dramatically go with a spray bog, goes on nice and thick and EVEN, took me one week to completely refair 2 40 ft hulls to perfection, also build a ply boat only 2000hrs to finish instead of 4000
sean

You're dead right Sean, if a fast and cheap build is what you want.Build an Easy. Having recently looked over a couple I'm a little worried about their resale value though, as it appears some of the builders are using cheap imported plywoods or downgrade unseasoned hoop pine ply, that are surface checking after only a couple of years, even though it has been epoxy coated. Got to be a worry.