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Old 04-11-2012, 13:32   #16
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Re: FP Marquises 56 or Eluthera

Per my previous comments - here's cool video of 5XN01 sailing @6 kts in 6 kts of wind.

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Old 05-11-2012, 14:51   #17
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Re: FP Marquises 56 or Eluthera

Tropic cat, SMJ is not only a fan, but a former owner of an older, solidly-built British Cat - a Cherokee 35. Surely you must agree with a couple of propositions that he has put forward:

1. That modern construction techniques and materials have premitted construction of vessels that are extremely strong, but lighter than in the past. Not saying that they will be cheap (or as light as pure racing boats), but you surely must agree that boats can be built to be both reasonably light and yet strong enough for offshore cruising.

2. That there is at least a debate concerning the utility of boards on cruising cats. Some, such as yourself, conisder them to be inappropriate due to the need for increased adjustments while underway, increased maintenance and the fact that they typically leave the rudders unprotected when the boards are up. These are all valid points, of course, but consider the following:
i. They typically lead to better performance on all points of sail (to windward, as you point out, but also on a run/reach where by elevating one or both, partially or fully, drag can be reduced). Surely you must agree that decent performance is a plus, even on a cruising boat.
ii. As SMJ points out, there is a theory that cats can 'trip' over their keels/boards in extremis, contributing to capsize. By definition, boards can be raised to reduce this risk, keels cannot be.
iii. If boards are adjusted regularly (as they should be), barnacles should not create a problem in terms of jambing in the the trunk.
iv. The amount of effort to trim the boards on a modern cat is typically pretty minimal - often not even requiring one to leave the cockpit.
v. Raising the boards reduces draft compared to fixed keels and expands your possibilities for anchoring. This can be critical with an approaching storm front - i.e., you may be able to enter a great hurricane hole that has an entry too shallow for a boat with greater draft; you will certainly be able to anchor closer to shore, making it easier to run lines ashore, should that be necessary.

As you know, I too am a big fan of fixed keels for a cruising cat, especially if the keels are fitted with shoes and rudders that are mounted on full, or partial skegs. Having said that, I am also a big fan of Catanas for having achieved an enviable record as cruising boats, but also for having performance that is well above average for a boat with so much accomodation and such solid construction.

Gunboats? Less accomodation (and less luxurious accomodation) than a Catana, but with better performance still. While I think that the Gunboats would be a little too far on the performance side of the spectrum for my taste/needs, nevertheless I don't think that anyone can say that they are absolutely unsuitable as a cruising boat for everyone.

As you know, all boats are compromises. Very few aspects of design and construction are win/win and, in selecting a boat, one can only do their best to try to find a boat that best mirrors their own priorities and budget.
If someone has the budget to afford one and their priorties included the ability to circumnaviagate, better than decent accomodation and finish, good performance - especially to windward, then in my view a Catana would be an excellent choice.

As to FP's, in my view they are stylish and their performance is decent on all points of sail - certainly better than the older British-built cats, like our own. As to suitablitly for offshore passages, they do have keels (which you prefer) which, if damaged, do not allow water intrusion into the interior. For peformance and comfort in boisterious conditions, they often had smaller and higher bridgedecks than Lagoons and Leopards, their largest competitors. Yes, recent models do tend to be noisy in a seaway, although one must bear in mind that the interior modules are not structural and hence can move and flex without effecting the solidity of the sructure. Many have completed safe ocean crossings and the only real concerns that I would have with them would be long-term durability (and the serious issues with blisters and the non-transferability of the warranty come into play here), as well as the relatively small nav stations and galleys that were included in many of their boats. My preference is for a more solid and durable boat with better galley storage (and better bracing for the cook), better standard ventilation (some models are a bit limited on the number and quality of opening hatches). Of course, for cruising purposes I also prefer my cutter rig (with a dedicated furling staysail/storm jib), my full-width forward bow pulpit, the shoes on my keels, the partial skegs on my rudders, the solid solid walkway dividing my forward trampolines, my tempered safety-glass fixed portlights - and virtually none of these are available on new production cats under 50 feet. Does this mean that everyone should consider my boat a better cruising boat than boats without these features? Absolutely not. She has some features that I very much like and she came at a price that I could afford. Having said that, I will admit to lusting after some Catanas and heck, while also outside of my budget, I will also admit to lusting after the FP Eleuthera 60 when I first saw her!

Brad


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Old 07-11-2012, 04:53   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tropic Cat

Seaworthiness and performance are at opposite ends of the catamaran spectrum, and you know this. A hobie cat will flip in 50 knots of wind, but cruise at 25 knots at 20 knots of wind all day long. At the other end of the spectrum, my Catalac won't ever do more than 7 knots but will survive a hurricane (yeah, I went 100 miles through hurricane Katrina).

If I ignore what barnacles can and will do to dagger board trunks and we forget that as you scuff up your boards, they will delaminate and just concentrate just on that fact that you think a dagger board boat is more "seaworthy" than a boat with a fixed keel. I'm speechless.... except to say that in this universe, that's simply not the case. The only area where there is any advantage to using boards is clawing off a lee shore in a blow. Something no one has had to do since they put twin diesels in catamarans.
I think it is more seaworthy. Last few cat flips have been boat tripping. Can't trip if your board is pulled up. Diesels in a catamaran makes it seaworthy?

Dude stop using absolutes.
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Old 07-11-2012, 05:00   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tropic Cat

Seaworthiness and performance are at opposite ends of the catamaran spectrum, and you know this. A hobie cat will flip in 50 knots of wind, but cruise at 25 knots at 20 knots of wind all day long. At the other end of the spectrum, my Catalac won't ever do more than 7 knots but will survive a hurricane (yeah, I went 100 miles through hurricane Katrina).

If I ignore what barnacles can and will do to dagger board trunks and we forget that as you scuff up your boards, they will delaminate and just concentrate just on that fact that you think a dagger board boat is more "seaworthy" than a boat with a fixed keel. I'm speechless.... except to say that in this universe, that's simply not the case. The only area where there is any advantage to using boards is clawing off a lee shore in a blow. Something no one has had to do since they put twin diesels in catamarans.
How many multihulls have you sailed?
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Old 07-11-2012, 13:08   #20
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Re: FP Marquises 56 or Eluthera

Notice that the OP left the room because everyone started talking smack.

This is what the OP wanted to know. Can anyone answer the OPs question?

“Can someone explain the differences / improvements made between a FP Marquises 56 and FP Eluthera 60. Looking for a comfortable cruising boat for the family first”.
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Old 07-11-2012, 18:53   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cotemar
Notice that the OP left the room because everyone started talking smack.

This is what the OP wanted to know. Can anyone answer the OPs question?

“Can someone explain the differences / improvements made between a FP Marquises 56 and FP Eluthera 60. Looking for a comfortable cruising boat for the family first”.
And that would be your opinion. I wouldn't call it talking smack but I would call it debating a bunch of erroneous bs that added nothing to the conversation.
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Old 07-11-2012, 19:16   #22
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Re: FP Marquises 56 or Eluthera

The Marquises that the OP is looking at is a '96 model and would be more expensive then an '06 Eleuthra. While the Marquises has been completely rebuilt to a very high level (appearance) it is hard to see passing up a 10 year newer boat for the same price. IMO, when you enter the $500k to $650k price range, there are a lot of super nice choices.

I had suggested he look at a St. Francis 50 as they are one of my favorites. Like this one:
2005 St. Francis St. Francis 50 Sail Boat For Sale - www.yachtworld.com
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