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Old 06-11-2007, 02:21   #1
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Forum's prejudices..

I have been checking out regularly almost every post on this forum. I came to the conclusion that there are some kind of irresistable prejudices among forumers. Obviously they are not all shared by everyone but seems to be a kind of consensus. I'll try to debate some of them..This is just to say that the conditions are not same evreywhere on the globe..

1-FP's are "lightly built" and not made for long passages..
In my view, lightly built in "weight" doesn't mean necessarely that the boat is not seaworthy, provided that this gain in weight is a result of new /advanced technology rather than purely material saving.. FP claims that they have unique infusion technology which can ensure that.
Moreover, all of the FP's are travelling to their destination in Aust/NZ or to the US by sailing. It doesn't seem logical that that none of them were exposed to extreme conditions during these challenging deliveries.
I should also add that at least in this part of the world they keep their second hand value extremely well whilst most of the boats referrred to in the forums are totally unknown and have no chance at all to be serviced and sold out..
And not the least, performancewise, they are far better than many other boats.

2-Charterer's are all killing the boats..
My experience is limited to one or two charterer's in Turkey.(Belize, Athena and Venezia) The Venezia was built in '94 and said to be chartered from the very first day during all these years. I couldn't believe that she was so old until I checked the plate..Not a single scratch anywhere on the boat, rig in perfect condition, everything working properly. Maybe in the BVI's or elsewhere the charterer's are different, but they surely aren't the same everywhere.. To me, whether the boat is out of charter or not doesn't matter much. What it does matter is how the boat is maintained. I'd rather go for a boat nicely maintained in charter rather than a boat of careless owner.

3-Financially giving a boat to charterers is not a viable solution..
Well, it depends.. Here in Turkey, a new and large boat can easily have 24-25 weeks a year with an average weekly sales price of 4.800-5.000 €. (I am talking about 52-54 ft mono or +42 feet cat which cost around 350-370.000 €)
Generally speaking, for this kind of boat you get roughly 55-60% of the income. In 4 years time, 5 at most, you may get back the value of yr boat + couple of sailing each year. And if it is maintained properly, that's not a bad deal..

Cheers

Yeloya
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Old 06-11-2007, 03:29   #2
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FP's are light???? I always thought of them as heavy. Not as heavy as a Lagoon, maybe, but then what is?
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Old 06-11-2007, 03:49   #3
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Unlodaded displacement of FP range (from supplier's web)

Lavezzi 40 6.000 kg (13.250 lb)
Belize 43 8.600 kg (19.000 lb)
Orana 44 8.000 kg (17.650 lb)

Lagoon 38 7.120 kg. (15.600 lb)

For others, I don't have a precise data but I assume they are at least 20-30% heavier for the comparable size.. Obviously, extreme designs/carbon kevlar structures, etc. are not considered.

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Old 06-11-2007, 04:22   #4
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For whatever it's worth:

- I don't like multihull boats that much.
- I don't care about chartering either way. Seems like a great idea if you're into it; doesn't work for me. We're planning a circumnavigation in four years, so every place I'd consider chartering, we just say "oh yeah... we'll get there on our trip".

You said yourself that no everyone has the opinions you're referencing, so I'm not implying that you're stating otherwise. Just wanted to throw another random prejudice out there. Since I'm writing, here are some of my prejudices:

- Boats are not condos and people should stop confusing the two.
- Most idiot sailors I know have chart plotters.
- The fancier the boat, the more likely it is to stay in its slip forever.
- Anchors should be judged by more than their marketing material.
- Propane is dangerous, but kerosene and alcohol are really terrible.
- All sailors should use a drifter.
- Sailors should focus as much energy and learning on "light weather" sailing as they do "heavy weather" sailing.
- Mainsail furling is rediculous.
- With a cutter, a hanked on yankee with a downhaul is superior to a roller furler.

So there you go. There's my prejudices.
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Old 06-11-2007, 05:11   #5
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I don't think anyone on the forums are "FP bashing" but are rendering their own opinions of the boats. It might be from first hand experience but more than likely from either viewing them at boat shows or what they have heard, not from other owners but mostly brokers who are trying to sell them a competitive boat.
FP are owned by a large Corporation who are mainly interested in the bottom line, this doesn’t mean that they are a bad boat it just means that the builder must be efficient and lean on manufacture. What this should give you is a product that is appealing to the market at a competitive price. FP’s method of manufacture I personally don’t think is neither advanced nor unique but I’m sure it’s going to be cost effective. Again I say, this still doesn’t mean it’s a bad boat. When I recently climbed all over the new Orana and Salina at the La Rochelle boat show I was impressed with the thought that went in to some of the design features. One thing I did notice on these new boats, none of the cabinetry fits (there is a varying gap of around 20mm between the hull and the woodwork), the salesman will tell you that it’s for air circulation in the cupboards, good answer but think how much time they save by not having a joiner spend hours making each piece of wood fit exactly to varying hull shapes?
I personally haven’t heard of an FP breaking up in bad weather, serious de-lamination issues or stress cracking the same goes for the other two big builders Lagoon and R&C. All three companies build good boats to suit the market place they are aimed at. If you are considering a circumnavigation over a number of years, I myself wouldn’t choose one of them but if I wanted a boat that is capable of crossing an ocean to get to the Caribbean and will be very comfortable to live on board, then yes, I would look at them again in another light.

I chartered a cat from Turkey in March this year and was appalled by the condition. I had a snag list of 16 items that urgently required attention and this was the first charter of the season? A number of the items were actually dangerous, frayed sheets, frayed halyard and the main wouldn’t drop under its own weight. Speak to liveaboards and find out how much stuff breaks on a regular basis even when they look after it let alone hordes of different people onboard who couldn’t give a monkey’s about the boat. I’m off to the BVI next week for a fortnight, the boats have to back in dock by 9am and the next charter are back on board by 12, apart from a quick rinse how much maintenance will take place from now until the end of season? I agree the condition of charter boats depend on the management company but goods ones are the exception rather than the norm.
Regards
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Old 06-11-2007, 06:07   #6
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id say at 8500 for a 43 its not a light weight either id want it a bit lighter myself, you can build a ply cat that length thatll weigh less
sean
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Old 06-11-2007, 06:13   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yeloya View Post
I have been checking out regularly almost every post on this forum. I came to the conclusion that there are some kind of irresistable prejudices among forumers.
~ ~ ~
1-FP's are "lightly built" and not made for long passages..
In my view, lightly built in "weight" doesn't mean necessarely that the boat is not seaworthy, provided that this gain in weight is a result of new /advanced technology rather than purely material saving.. FP claims that they have unique infusion technology which can ensure that.
~ ~ ~
And not the least, performancewise, they are far better than many other boats.

2-Charterer's are all killing the boats..
~ ~ ~
To me, whether the boat is out of charter or not doesn't matter much. What it does matter is how the boat is maintained. I'd rather go for a boat nicely maintained in charter rather than a boat of careless owner.
You may be right, yeloya, and some posters here are prejudiced. That is certainly a common human trait.

We prefer to think of it as having well-founded and strongly-voiced opinions, however.

To your first point: Yes, some posters here regard the Fountaine Pajot line of catamarans as being "lightly built." You are correct, as well, that saving weight on a cat is a good thing.

Here, I think, is the source of your confusion.

"Lightly built" and "built light" are ways of saying two entirely different things.

If a cat is built light, and the weight savings results in superior performance, the builder deserves our respect. If, however, his cats are lightly built to achieve the weight savings, he deserves our contempt.

What is the difference? Many consider the "lightly built" FP cats as not stiff enough to stand up to the torquing stresses the structure suffers. This is due to the fact that a catamaran is essentially two different vessels, often subjected to different sea states, but joined by a bridgedeck to make them a single craft.

A robust, rigid vessel like a Privilege or Manta or an old Prout (and many others, as well) can handle the stress better than most "lightly built" cats. And, yes, that includes Fountaine Pajot (IMHO ).

While a lightly built vessel that has achieved weight savings might very well offer superior performance in, say, a race around Antigua, most cruisers don't think along those lines. Cruisers are more interested in a vessel that can take what the sea dishes out without breaking something every other watch. If that means getting "there" later than the lightly built vessel, but getting there in one piece, well, most consider that a no-brainer.

Your second point, about chartering and maintenance is valid. I, too, would rather have a well-maintained charter vessel than an abused private vessel.

That is a reflection of individual charter companies, though. Some are excellent, some, not so much.

And when it comes to selecting a vessel for cruising, charter layouts are seldom ideal for long-term cruising. Most experienced cruisers consider charter layouts hopelessly wanting for their cruising needs.

Having said all that, it's nice to have you here, yeloya. Another sailor with a different prejudice - sorry, opinion - is always welcome.

TaoJones
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Old 06-11-2007, 06:27   #8
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he likes cats and not the other mongrels 8-) so he cant be all that bad
sean
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Old 06-11-2007, 06:38   #9
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yeloya - Most folks will recommend strongly that you acquire the boat you decide is right for you - all things considered. Recognize it may not be right for others. In the end you get to be the most prejudicial for YOUR decision - as it should be - and don't worry about what others think. In the meantime, if you seek views from others, be prepared to hear stuff that is contrary to YOUR preconceived views. This is unavoidable but healthy.

Just my humble opinion.

Dave
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Old 06-11-2007, 07:36   #10
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Guys I wonder if you notice that most of the bashing on this forum is not from Catamaran owners. I've seen some very good posts on cats here, and then again some long, critical posts on boats from folks who don't own one of them.

It kind of makes you wonder.
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Old 06-11-2007, 07:44   #11
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NO MORE CATS VS MONO PLEASE

I am tired of the cats versus mono issue. Whatever you like or dislike from monohulls or cats doesn't really matter. Just go sailing and enjoy life in whatever you like and can afford.
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Old 06-11-2007, 08:04   #12
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Okay, this thread is a train wreck already, so I'm going to stoke the fires a bit more. What I don't generally enjoy about multi-hulls:

It's not the design, or the seaworthy aspect to be honest. I'd take a great multi hull over a crummy mono, and vice versa, any day of the week. So let me make it clear again *I don't have a problem with multi hulls from a naval architecture stand point*.

Where my problems shows up is in simplicity. I like simple boats that don't have a lot of crap on them (chart plotters, disco balls, entertainment systems, etc). More often than not, the people who are really into multi hulls also tend to be the people who are really into turning their boat into a floating condo.

My neighbor 50 yards away is on a center cockpit monohull, and has (I kid you not) a 50-some-odd-inch flat panel TV on the bulkhead. So it's not just the multi hulls.

From my experience, apples to apples, multi hull boats strike me more as a floating RV than a "sail boat". Again, not from the architecture, but from the attitudes, interior outfitting, and sailing habits.

If someone offered me up a multi hull better than my mono, and the price was a wash, I'd take it. I have the same bias towards overloaded sailing-RV's multi hulls than I do overloaded sailing-RV mono hulls.
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Old 06-11-2007, 08:19   #13
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Well this is interesting. A coupe of mono guys pop onto a multi hull thead.... One to say he hates reading about bashing (the Mr. Rebel post is an excellent example of what I referred to in an earlier post) and the other seems to be here for the sole reason of bashing. Please moderators take notice.

Mr. Rebel.... it's with the best of intentions I just have to ask why in the world you would put this post here? I can only imagine that you feel it's very important that we all read how much you think we are sailing floating RVs . Again, it's with the best of intentions that I tell you that we appreciate this as much as you would appreciate us posting what a dog a Hans Christian 36 is. This is only a comparison statement.

IMHO It's simply uncalled for.
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Old 06-11-2007, 08:34   #14
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Back to yeloya's thread-starting point, does anyone feel that Fountaine Pajot cats are being unfairly criticized? Are they better vessel's than some of us think? Would they be anyone's first choice for a circumnavigation?

TaoJones
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Old 06-11-2007, 08:48   #15
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Back to yeloya's thread-starting point, does anyone feel that Fountaine Pajot cats are being unfairly criticized? Are they better vessel's than some of us think? Would they be anyone's first choice for a circumnavigation?

TaoJones
I think they are probably a lot better than they used to be. I've looked around the current range of Lavezzi's, Bahia's and Belize's and couldn't see anything really to criticise but...

I spent some time on a late 90's Athena and you could feel the deck flex as you walked around the vicinity of the forward lockers. I also went down into the bow compartment and you could see daylight coming through the hull topsides in places but not in others indicating a very variable quality of layup.

So, I think they had a well deserved bad reputation which will, unfortunately, take a while to change.
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