Cruisers Forum
 


Join CruisersForum Today

Reply
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 28-01-2009, 17:36   #31
Registered User

Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 31
Hey remember the day when Square Riggers had rigging and today WE HAVE the Maltese Falcon it can be engineered. Theres more engineering in a conventional Sloop rig then in an unstayed sloop Freedom boats? And others............................... so the technology is out there someone just has to build a wing powered boat and prove it to the NA Sayers that it works. Someday some will
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	M falcon.jpg
Views:	119
Size:	193.9 KB
ID:	6921  
__________________

__________________
fixed wing is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 28-01-2009, 17:39   #32
Registered User

Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 31
They all said Perkins was NUTS when he built this and that it WOULD NOT work
Well today... what a dream boat wish we all could afford the sails for it
__________________

__________________
fixed wing is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 28-01-2009, 19:49   #33
Registered User

Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Cincinnati
Posts: 53
Walker Wingsail

The Walker Wingsail Zefyr 4 named "Larinka" was in for refurbishment prior to resale. Someone was asking $2.5 Million for her in August this year, now down below $1.5 million. If you google for "Larinka Zefyr 4" you will find the Yachtworld posting. It's a good look at the broker's site cause this is truly an amazing craft. Nice pictures. Claims to have experienced (7) hurricanes and winds in excess of 108 knots.

Wing area of only 465 square feet (43m2) for a light displacement of 11550 lbs. Might be a little weak on light air performance.

Seems to have survived a few miles, commissioned in 2001.

JT
__________________
jjtctaylor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 30-01-2009, 18:16   #34
Registered User

Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 31
I check with harbor wing and they are looking at solar film from
www.powerfilmsolar.com
To cover the wings to run electric engines
they have a 48' Morrelli & Melvin designed Cat that will do 20knt in 20knts built in the USA for $ 1,500,000 they say it will keep up with the Gun Boat
__________________
fixed wing is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 30-01-2009, 19:11   #35
Registered User

Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Cincinnati
Posts: 53
Solar and wings

Lot's of challenges with solar on wings as they rotate but connections/wires don't. Mast top devises are not very practical for this reason.

Need to evaluate the modulus of elasticity for the solar film sheet as wings flex.

Solar might be helpful to make wing control systems independent of any physical connection to the main hull. Makes some degree of complication and risk failure for wireless communication of wing devices to the helm, but certainly solar would be helpful to charge a wing battery.

Wing battery might be used as counterweight for tail rudders as well.

Transferring power from solar to main hull would take either a ring transformer or a slip contact device such as that designed by Honeybee Robotics. Either case will take some engineering to make it work.

Take a lot of panels at a less than optimum angle of incidence to make a dent in propulsion. But it could help with a long period recharge.

Certain it all could be engineered, but have to keep our eyes open to the expense and practicality to bring this to the greater sailing community. A couple of craft outfitted with high end stuff will not dissuade this forum that wings are ready as a competitive alternative to cloth sails. John Walker didn't make it happen even though he made several boats. most if not all are still sailing.

JT
__________________
jjtctaylor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-02-2009, 12:34   #36
Registered User

Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 31
Thumbs up

i am glad we are all open to change................

other wise wind driven wagons
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	350px-Sail_wagon_edit1.jpg
Views:	102
Size:	22.2 KB
ID:	6956  
__________________
fixed wing is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-02-2009, 12:58   #37
Registered User

Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Cincinnati
Posts: 53
Thumbs up Enhancements

And in 1860 they had rudders too !
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	07aghalloffame8.JPG
Views:	106
Size:	52.8 KB
ID:	6957  
__________________
jjtctaylor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-02-2009, 15:55   #38
Registered User

Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 31
never comes down

Here is a wing they never take down
it is down in Mexico
also take a look at fast ride

Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	SS_at_anchor_in_Mexico_001.jpg
Views:	129
Size:	450.4 KB
ID:	6970  
__________________
fixed wing is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-02-2009, 22:13   #39
Registered User

Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 81
No need of papers

Races, Math, and papers will be slow to convince people, but a fleet of charter boats, that could change minds quickly.
Good luck, it looks very promissing.
__________________
decktapper is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-02-2009, 20:20   #40
Registered User

Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 31
Papers

Quote:
Originally Posted by decktapper View Post
Races, Math, and papers will be slow to convince people, but a fleet of charter boats, that could change minds quickly.
Good luck, it looks very promissing.
from Lanikaisailor.................. @ Sailing Anarchy talking about wings, I thought you all should read

I am a newbie and don’t usually post but thought that someone that has sailed on Harborwing’s “HWT-X1” could add something to the mix. I have been able to help Mark and his team as a safety consultant on many of their tests over the last two years. I am not a rocket scientist but have got to drink cocktails with the two doctors of Aerospace engineering that have worked on the boat. From what I gathered, the wing on HWT-X1 has less drag than a round object or mast 1/10th the size. http://www.soe.ucsc.edu/~elkaim/Documents/...kaim_config.pdf
The boat has sat out at the dock in many local storms here in Hawaii and done fine. This is dirty gust over 45knots.

Let me first start out by explaining that HWT-X1 is a proof of concept prototype and not meant to show everything that can be done with the technologie. She is a Stiletto 27 extended to 30’ with the stock 14’ beam. She has a 36’ wing that is way too powerful for her needs (David Hubbard is a racer) if you watch closely in the video on Harbor Wing Technologies - Autonomous Unmanned Surface Vessel - AUSV you will see that the top four panels don’t even have film on them. She is full of batteries, motors and computers and weighs over 4000lbs (she is a crude prototype, sorry Mark). The boat can still fly a hull. She can sail comfortably up wind at 25degrees of true, feathers at 20 and stalls at above 19.

This boat can sail by itself! It is totally autonomous and shows that the technology is viable. Is it the correct platform for offshore cruising? No, but she has sailed in over 6’-8’ seas with winds up to 42knots apparent and lived to tell about it. I was there watching, and yelling at the engineers to shut if off before it could flip (this was before the computers knew to turn down the thrust in certain conditions and before the load cells where installed.)
On another test, this boats computer system compensated in a strong gusts and adjusted trim so as not to flip a half of a second before the observing sailor on board hit the chicken switch.
Has there ever been another time that a computer has saved a multihull from flipping?
For that matter is there another boat that can tack, jibe, sail backwards, reef, while holding a perfect course without any people involved?
This is a real program with real sailors behind it. Stan Honey still has the speed record with the boat of 13.4knts close reaching.

Everyone asks about hurricanes, and there is some mention of taking one of these into the southern ocean. My opinion is that you could design a G class multi with wings that could handle the task, but most sailors don’t try to go there. Would you take a Moorings 42 down there? Could a wing boat with these technologies survive a hurricane, I think maybe. Not all boats out there now do.

Bottom line is that the wing is easy to use and self trims so that you can concentrate on driving the direction that you want to and not have to worry about the sail trim. This has been hard for sailors to grasp; the direction of travel doesn’t change trim. The wing is always maximized for the angle of attack or thrust desired. It is the fastest way to reef that there is. The wind speed comes up the angle of attack is trimmed down.

Aloha
__________________
fixed wing is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-02-2009, 10:10   #41
Registered User

Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 31
from boat international story
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	170' reduced.jpg
Views:	110
Size:	111.2 KB
ID:	7016  
__________________
fixed wing is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-02-2009, 04:02   #42
Registered User

Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 7
Quote:
Originally Posted by jjtctaylor View Post
The OMER sail has problems with narrow window for angle of attack. Way too much active management to make that system work well. If we can figure out a way to add a tail for active tracking then he might have a winner.

JT
JT,

Hi, I am Ilan Gonen, the developer of "Omer" wing sail.

I saw your correspondence and thought that I should clear some wrong statements I have found there. Omer does not have "problems with narrow angle of attack". On the contrary, according to my experience, and I have a lot of it, the wing is effective within the range of 8-20 degrees AoA. In the web site you can find photos of the boat's data while sailing, showing angles of attack from 10 to 25 degrees, and yet the boat has excellent performance. "Omer" has a gauge showing the angle of attack, and we trim the angle with the boom sheet, simply the way it is done in the children's Optimist. Very easy.
Also, there is no need for tail rudders as suggested in your post. The "Omer" was designed to rotate spontaneously into the wind, the camber is then trimmed by changing the angle between the mast and the boom, and off you are!! Again, simple and easy. Why should one fix there an unnecessary cumbersome structure?
The system (Omer Mark II) works very well the way it is designed. We sailed "Omer" from Slovenia to Turkey, along the Adriatic sea, the Ionian and the Aegean seas, winds up to 30 knots (reefed), with very high performance and no problem.
You are invited to visit the web site, to see there how simple "Omer" is and how it operates like a main sail but with the advantages of a wing.

Furthermore, you are invited to Fano/Italy to sail the boat and test it yourself. I promises you will enjoy it very much.

Ilan Gonen
__________________
Omer wing sail
Ilan gonen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-02-2009, 04:21   #43
Registered User

Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 7
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aussiesuede View Post
The first time I saw that design, my first thought was "where is the 'Aileron' on the trailing edge of the mainsail wing? Would seem to solve the issues with opening up the angle of attack. It doesn't seem like a difficult engineering feat to have a 'solid' sail track connected from the top of the mast to the trailing edge of the boom. Then at the end of the main boom have an articulated joint to which a 'mini boom (3 feet long)' is attached. That 'miniboom', and it's attached 'wing', would effectively act as an 'airleron' to most effectively adjust attack angle changes. Such a system would be less cumbersome than a traditional rig with greater ease of sail-handling and a more efficient airfoil.

The thing I like most about the Omer Sail approach, is that the it can be fully furled and as such I see promise with it's basic design being the most promising of the wing designs. No exotic materials, and a less cumbersome rig overall. If it gets gusty, a simple release of the mainsheet allows the rig to naturally relieve all counterforce and basically enter a 'stall' eliminating all lift - which is desirable in that instance on a cat. MOB? Again, release the mainsheet and hard rudder in the opposite direction of angle of attack - and you've basically got an 'emergency brake' that would leave you 'waddling'.
Aussiesuede,
I wonder why are you trying to find a solution where there is no problem. Omer wing sail is designed such that it does not need these rudders. It rotates spontaneously into the wind. Isn't it better this way????
And yes, you are right, it is a simple design (it was relatively fast and easy to invent but very long and difficult to simplify), operates the same way as main sails but with excellent wing performance. What else is needed?

Ilan Gonen
__________________
Omer wing sail
Ilan gonen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14-02-2009, 06:46   #44
Registered User

Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 31
soft vs Hard

ok soft we know works
but
we also know HARD WINGS work just as well and they are faster
the two main Hard Wings are Stayed and Unstayed ( 360 degrees)
The Unstayed can be manual our computer controled

attached are photos of 360 degrees Cats that would be could for cruising


Walkers boat Tri hull was heavy
Harbor wings in new light computer controled manual overrides
Dalhberg twin Hard wing
harry proa (not shown no wing built yet) Concept
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	walker wing 2.jpg
Views:	112
Size:	67.7 KB
ID:	7101   Click image for larger version

Name:	wing 2.jpg
Views:	117
Size:	484.9 KB
ID:	7102  

Click image for larger version

Name:	dahlberg.jpg
Views:	114
Size:	11.9 KB
ID:	7103  
__________________
fixed wing is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14-02-2009, 15:49   #45
Registered User

Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 31
Quote:
Originally Posted by fixed wing View Post
ok soft we know works
but
we also know HARD WINGS work just as well and they are faster
the two main Hard Wings are Stayed and Unstayed ( 360 degrees)
The Unstayed can be manual our computer controled

attached are photos of 360 degrees Cats that would be could for cruising


Walkers boat Tri hull was heavy
Harbor wings in new light computer controled manual overrides
Dalhberg twin Hard wing
harry proa (not shown no wing built yet) Concept
DALHBERG.. I was wrong is just an imposed image
they have not built it.. sorry

but this one they have
When we heard tell of an unusual sailing trimaran that had sailed into the Whangarei Town Basin to take up a berth between two pilings, tacking up river and sailing smartly sideways by manipulating its carbon fibre wing sail, our curiosity was piqued. We came across them hauled out at one of the smaller local shipyards, and took advantage of the opportunity to closely examine the vessel and chat at length with the owner. One of a group of five Dutch vessels of various designs sailing together around the world, it was fascinating to discover this boat's particular strengths and many departures from the norm. The owner had built her from scratch. The hulls are slippery with a long flat run aft and dagger boards. The wings, a main wing and its trim tab, are very light skin structures made of carbon fibre with no internal masts. They are mounted onto a balanced hollow boom that pivots freely over the cabin roof on a large bearing base. The wing load is controlled strictly by adjusting the angle of the trim tab in relation to the angle of the main wing. When the angle is nil, the entire unit just feathers into the wind, offering little resistance - and it is free to rotate 360 degrees. For engine power the vessel has a central diesel driving a hydraulic pump and two retractable hydraulic propeller legs that fold up neatly under the tri's side bridges like an aircraft's landing gear. When the legs are up, the propellers are accessible for cleaning etc. under small deck hatches in the upper side of the decks! This vessel has a bipod radar mast over the pulpit, and a clever dinghy hoist tripod built into the lifeline. We were told that she sails well and fast. Only the two bigger ketches in their little fleet could outsail it, and that on broad reaches where they could fly big spinnakers in lighter air.
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	DutchWing.jpg
Views:	122
Size:	33.8 KB
ID:	7109   Click image for larger version

Name:	DutchWingSailDetails.jpg
Views:	113
Size:	36.1 KB
ID:	7110  

__________________

__________________
fixed wing is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
catamaran

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Installing Mast Steps (Folding vs Fixed) rebel heart Construction, Maintenance & Refit 37 08-09-2009 13:02
No Fixed Address Brent Swain The Library 5 16-01-2009 09:40
Fixed mounted GPS's Celestialsailor Marine Electronics 16 24-12-2007 14:18
Sea Chase Cat, or similar large cat...? CSY Man Multihull Sailboats 1 08-11-2004 10:25
CD15 Fixed GordMay Navigation 0 11-09-2003 02:39



Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -7. The time now is 22:54.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.