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Old 11-01-2008, 09:21   #1
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Question First Cat: TPI Lagoon ?

Hi,

Any pro/con to chime in on with regards to an older (91-93), refitted TPI Lagoon 42'. And how this boat would be for a first cat ?

(carib based, if it makes a difference)

Thanks in advance.
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Old 11-01-2008, 21:18   #2
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Reviewing the Lagoon 42
By Charles E. Kanter

The Lagoon 42 was introduced in 1991 at the boat show">Annapolis boat show. No question, it made a big hit and was the surprise darling upstart of the show. I climbed all over it, poked around, peered into the dark recesses of bilges and virtually inaccessible compartments, and could find only one major drawback — the boat had no rubrails. Now you may think I have a rub-rail fetish, but to prove my point about their necessity, this boat had scratches on the sides that may not have happened had there been proper rubrails. Imagine, the very first of the breed ever shown, in all her beauty, had big scratches down the sides that most likely could have been avoided with proper rub rails.
As the years ticked by, I watched several of these boats under sail in various charter operations. I was not impressed by their performance. However, I had to give them the benefit of the doubt because, after all, they were operated by charter people. I did insurance surveys on several boats, but that did not really let me get to know the boats in depth.


My personal testing philosophy is to test-sail a boat the way it would most likely be sailed in real life. I attempt to avoid the total stripped-out ultra-light mode that most demonstrations entail. Except the ultra-committed racers, few boats ever sail with minimum weight. I test-sailed both the Dragonfly and the F-27 with a full complement and wished to do the same thing for the G-32. I estimated the weight of the five crew and our gear at an approximate total of 900 pounds, which is quite a contrast to the 1,100 pounds of designed vessel weight.
In November of 1999 I was engaged to do a pre-purchase survey and sea trials. Finally I had my opportunity to really get into the nitty-gritty. As it turned out, I surveyed that boat several additional times and gave it extensive sea trials in order to use-test the added equipment.
Plunging out in the Atlantic Ocean through Port Everglades Inlet at Fort Lauderdale, FL, into six to eight-foot seas and 30-knot winds is not for the faint-hearted. My intrepid crew, consisting of the owners and a couple of wanna-bes, made the trip. It was my second sea trial on this particular vessel. They had just completed an extensive refit and equipment installation, and sea trials were definitely in order...the tougher the better.



This is one sea-kindly boat. No number of tacks, jibes, rough conditions or deliberate attempts could make this boat slam its bridgedeck. A single reef in the main and a full jib gave us good speed and perfect control. No question about it, this is a boat in which you can feel safe, secure and comfortable anywhere in the world. We never missed a tack and found that the boat would tack with main alone, even with a reef in it. Despite the fact that the boat has keels rather than daggerboards, it points quite nicely. We had no trouble tacking through 90 degrees, and holding 35 degrees, apparent even in those rough and tumble conditions.
What I do not like about the boat, a complaint I have with several of the French boats, is that too much is sacrificed for style alone. The extremely sloped cabin face turns the salon into a hot house. Outside window covers are necessary to keep the sun out. When you cover the windows, you lose one of the greatest catamaran attributes—panoramic visibility. The extreme slope also makes it difficult to get up on the top deck and causes the loss of considerable interior space. The newer Lagoon series have a more vertical look.
The Jeanneau Lagoon 42 was built by Tillotson-Pearson in Rhode Island. It is a bluewater boat with twin diesel auxiliary engines and a fractional sloop rig. It is a beautiful vessel with exceptionally fair lines. It has excellent deck access and a secure trampoline area. The forward crossbeam appears to be well-made. The dinghy davits are massively strong. It has a four-cabin two-head arrangement with ample room. It has a modest but adequate sized galley-down layout. Both the galley and the typical horseshoe-shaped salon are smallish by contemporary standards. Visibility from the interior is good without the exterior curtains.
One of the nicest things about this boat is the engine room access from the stern steps. This puts the engines completely outside the accommodation. Accessories such as watermakers and generators fit securely in the huge, airy, accessible engine rooms.
These are not the easiest boats to anchor but overall are not bad. Anchors can be stored in the bow rollers, and the windlass is back by the mast. This arrangement works well in benign weather. However, when the weather gets rough, or if you are in a marginal anchorage, it is not a simple task to fix a bridle or a snubber, and rigging a Bahamian moor is particularly difficult.
The fractional sloop rig with a moderate roach mainsail has both advantages and drawbacks. Mainsails of this type are heavy and hard to raise. Having a full roach with battens pressing inward makes things even more difficult. But from an ease of sailing and performance view, it is usually worth the effort.

The price history of these vessels is interesting, and those looking for preowned boats have an expanding market. Boats are selling for as low as 50% of their original cost. They started out in 1991 in the $300,000 range with sails and engines, and now you can see them offered at competitive prices. Use caution, however, as many of the low-price boats are ex-charter boats needing major refit.
Another advantage to these boats is that even though they are French boats, they were built in the United States by Tillotson/Pearson; thhus, they are American-made boats and not subject to the restrictions on foreign boats covered by the infamous Jones act.





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Old 12-01-2008, 06:19   #3
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Mr Kanter is THE catamaran expert.
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Old 13-01-2008, 12:59   #4
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First time owner of Lagoon 42 TPI

I bought my first cruising catamaran last year..and it so happened to be a Lagoon 42 TPI. It appears I'm well qualified to answer the question as to whether this is suitable as a first cat...I give it a thumbs up. The review posted in the prior post echos many of the things that we discovered first hand.

We've spent 10 months cruising her in the Caribbean, and are quite happy with the boat. She is ideal for extended cruising, again, for the reasons mentioned in the previous post. We found that the large volume of available storage was more important than we originally thought it would be....many newer boats appear roomier inside, but lack the storage to keep things out of sight (and uncluttered), which is fine for short term charters but not so great for living aboard.

If I could change one thing, I'd put more sail area on the boat. The self tacking jib is a great feature when you're sailing upwind short handed;

tacking routine:
1. Steer though the eye of the wind 90 degrees
2. Done

...but coming from previous experience of racing beach cats, I'm always fond of more power.

We also loved the large galley..since much time was spent there. In fairness, ours is the owners version, so the galley is larger than the standard version.

In summary, as a first catamaran, it's a good boat. Easy to sail, easy to live aboard, well constructed. The only con is that the interior isn't as roomy as some of the more modern cats.

Hope that this helps

Cheers,

Brad
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Old 13-01-2008, 13:35   #5
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Hi Brad - I've always admired the 42 TPIs, although I've never had the pleasure of sailing one. It was ahead of its time, IMHO.

Quote:
Originally Posted by zzzixxx View Post
The self tacking jib is a great feature when you're sailing upwind short handed;

tacking routine:
1. Steer though the eye of the wind 90 degrees
2. Done


Was the self tacking jib original? This is a feature I may backfit my boat to when we get tired of grinding winches or if I ruin/wear out my big genoa. The newer Catanas have a self tacking spade from the git go, although I'm pretty sure my current 150% genny can smoke 'em. But the spade jib plus a gennaker or Code 0 makes a nice combination.

Dave
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Old 13-01-2008, 13:50   #6
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Lagoon 42 TPI

The self tacking jib is original equipment on the TPI. While the trade winds in the Caribbean often force us to reef, for those times when it's lighter a larger jib would be helpful. A larger furling headsail on a bowspirit would be a nice addition to the blade jib.
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Old 13-01-2008, 13:55   #7
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ughmo2000, thanks for the detailed report on the TPI. The information is incredibly detailed and a great help!

Brad, thanks for the first hand information...it's always very helpful to hear from owners of a particular boat.

As I mentioned, this would be my first cat; that being the case, I think it's better to go with an older and less expensive (albeit well proven) boat. I'm guessing that I will eventually upgrade to a newer boat after sailing this first vessel for some time... after all, that seems the best way to truly understand (and prioritize) the most important attributes in the selection of a boat.

For a boat in the $200-275K range, I keep coming back to the TPI. I've seen some nice, refitted ones (on the web) in the $230k range. A few things in particular that I like 1) great BD clearance 2) manageable for singlehanding 3) safe, well proven cruising platform

A few questions:
1) Regarding Kanter's report, would you agree on the anchoring issues he pointed out?

2) Any rigging you would change to best suit singlehanding? Can you easily refit to run all lines to the helm?

3) Performance-wise, It sounds like she's similar to a FP Athena 38? Would that be a fair comparison?

4) How much of a hit would such items as a genset, a/c, washing machine, water maker etc. make? Not that I need all of these, but am interested on the impact for such a wish list.

5) Do you ever find the saloon too small? Anyone can take pretty pictures of a boat for sale (and make it appear spacious), but for the practical day to day cruising is it just too cramped there? Likewise, is the nav station too tight to lay charts, a laptop, mount electronics etc.?

6) Galley: Very personal, but I like galley up and have never sailed a multi with one down below. I assume you get used to it, but am concerned how much of a pain it is underway, especially when it's rough going.

7) Lots of variables to this, but as a previous owner, I'd like to hear what your monthly operating expenses were like during your carib cruise.

Any thoughts on either one of these TPIs?
YachtWorld.com Boats and Yachts for Sale
YachtWorld.com Boats and Yachts for Sale

Thanks again, this is all VERY helpful!
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Old 13-01-2008, 14:30   #8
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Lagoon 42 TPI

You make a lot of good points. I've inserted my responses within your text below:

"As I mentioned, this would be my first cat; that being the case, I think it's better to go with an older and less expensive (albeit well proven) boat."

That's similar to the logic we used to select the TPI Lagoon. Initially, we felt we could get more boat for the money by buying older (i.e, 1992),and we were proven correct in this assumption.


"I'm guessing that I will eventually upgrade to a newer boat after sailing this first vessel for some time... after all, that seems the best way to truly understand (and prioritize) the most important attributes in the selection of a boat."

After almost a year on my first cruising boat, I couldn't agree with you more. If I were to buy another boat, my wish list, now, would be significantly different than it was when I got the boat a year ago.

"For a boat in the $200-275K range, I keep coming back to the TPI. I've seen some nice, refitted ones (on the web) in the $230k range. A few things in particular that I like 1) great BD clearance 2) manageable for singlehanding 3) safe, well proven cruising platform"

All true. We also learned that the old addage "they don't build them like they used to" is true, at least in this case. The construction of the boat is solid, built by Tillotson Pearson using end grain balsa core and vinylester (sp?) resin. Also, the interior is well fitted, with wood throughout. The newer boats, at roughly the same weight, are not held in the same regard, construction wise, by people more knowledgable than us...or so we've been told. The level of fit, finish and appointments in the TPI would not be commercially competitive in today's new catamaran market.

"A few questions:
1) Regarding Kanter's report, would you agree on the anchoring issues he pointed out?"

I hope I don't start a firestorm by disagreeing with him,...but I must disagree...with a disclaimer. This, as I've said, is my first cruising boat (my previous experience was racing beach cats), ergo my first anchoring experience..and I can't imagine how it can be much easier than the setup on our boat. Perhaps it's been changed since his article. Ours has twin anchor rollers located at the middle of the front cross beam. The windlass is in a locker just in front of the mast. The chain is external. Everything is accessible. I've seen other cats where the anchor chain goes under the trampoline and often does not extend up to the front of the bow...and it seems like it would be more complicated than our straightforward setup. Bottom line...if a rookie like me can live on anchor for a year and find it easy...then it's easy.

"2) Any rigging you would change to best suit singlehanding? Can you easily refit to run all lines to the helm?"

This was my original plan...to bring all lines aft (the halyard winches are on the mast). But after using the boat's original configuration for awhile, I'm glad I left it as is. Going to the mast is infrequent and I think that reefing at the mast is easier than single line reefing...but I'm sure there are those that would disagree.


"3) Performance-wise, It sounds like she's similar to a FP Athena 38? Would that be a fair comparison?"

Unknown...we had a light air day sailing with a FP42 and found them to quicker in the light bumpy stuff..but never gauged against a FP38 (nor have I sailed one). From what I've heard, the FP's are lighter, so I would espect them to get the nod on performance, especially if it's light.

"4) How much of a hit would such items as a genset, a/c, washing machine, water maker etc. make? Not that I need all of these, but am interested on the impact for such a wish list."

When I first started cruising, I had a long list of things to add to the boat, some of which are in your list above. A wise person told me not to buy anything major for six months..and luckily I followed it. The only equipment that I added to the boat was a chart plotter..which was a great investment. What I want on my boat and what you want on yours depend on personal priorities and intended use of the boat. That said, we used the boat for living aboard while cruising the Caribbean islands..so keep this in mind when reading my response:

In general...if it isn't essential, try to live without it. It's one more thing to maintain, thus take you away from the leisure of cruising.

As to specific items:

Genset - We don't have air conditioning (rarely need it in Caribbean), so we don't need a generator. Ergo...don't want one. Instead we have eight solar panels that provide more than enough power for us..including full time DC refrigerator and freezer compressors.

Washing machine - might be nice, but will take room and lots of fresh water, and require a genset. One luxury we afford ourselves is to take the laundry ashore and have it done. This service is easy to find.

Water maker - got one - 26 gallons per hour...and love it. Essential equipment to me...because I don't like to go to the dock unless I have to..which is only for diesel.


"5) Do you ever find the saloon too small? Anyone can take pretty pictures of a boat for sale (and make it appear spacious), but for the practical day to day cruising is it just too cramped there? Likewise, is the nav station too tight to lay charts, a laptop, mount electronics etc.?"

I do wish that the salon was bigger, but for the two of us it's fine. Most time is spent in the cockpit anyways. The sloped roof makes the salon appear smaller than it is...which is a shame, but I guess there's some payback in sailing performance due to reduced windage. As to the nav station, the owner's version has a larger chart table than the standard with a different seating configuration for the salon, so we have ample space for spreading out charts, etc. The salon table is nearby, so the clutter can migrate there if you're as messy as I am.


"6) Galley: Very personal, but I like galley up and have never sailed a multi with one down below. I assume you get used to it, but am concerned how much of a pain it is underway, especially when it's rough going.:"

Actually, the galley down on the TPI was a mean incentive in our purchase. Again, this is the owner's version, so the galley is bigger with more cupboards, cabinets, larger frige, etc. I was seriously looking at a Lagoon 380 with the galley up, and after I saw the TPI the 380 looked like a camping stove in an RV. Galley up would be nice, but because the galley is down, it's massive and functional. also, the owner version has a "pass through" area to the salon, so that "in the dungeon" feeling is eliminated for the cook.

"7) Lots of variables to this, but as a previous owner, I'd like to hear what your monthly operating expenses were like during your carib cruise."

In this case ignorance is bliss, I would absolutely not like to know anything about my budget...so please don't ask me to force a review. I think any boat owner would say the same...the amount is...."more than I planned".

"Any thoughts on either one of these TPIs?
YachtWorld.com Boats and Yachts for Sale
YachtWorld.com Boats and Yachts for Sale"

Sorry, but I can't click though on these links.

Thanks again, this is all VERY helpful!
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Old 13-01-2008, 14:47   #9
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What is the standing head room.
Cockpit
salon
galley
head
shower?
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Old 13-01-2008, 14:54   #10
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head room?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Therapy View Post
What is the standing head room.
Cockpit
salon
galley
head
shower?
Sorry...I can't quote exact figures and I'm too lazy to get out the tape measure...but since I'm six foot and I fit in all of these places, the simple answer is "higher than six feet". Also, ceiling heights vary..for example, galley is under salon room at one point, so headroom is about 10 feet...sort of misleading to provide that figure tho...but "minimum" heights are all greater than six feet..enough so that I don't bonk my head when walking around.

Not really helpful, huh?

Cheers,

Brad
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Old 13-01-2008, 15:06   #11
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CB Cat

Hey CB Cat..did you recieve the private message that was sent to you?
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Old 13-01-2008, 15:27   #12
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Brad,

Thanks for the lengthy replies to my questions. The details you provide on the TPI are great.

Like you, I have been looking at newer (5-8 yrs old) boats for some time, but have been scaling back to an older, well maintained cat. Again, more expensive/bigger boat/complicated systems = more $ to maintain. I'm a relative newbie and since this is my first boat, I think simple is better (and easier on the wallet). I'd rather learn my lessons on an older boat and then step up in the future.

Rigging:
I think my real interest in running all lines to the helm, is that I may well be singlehanding, so it'd be easier to run the main halyard and reefing lines aft. This would be especially convenient (and safe) in heavy weather.

Wish List:
I've heard the same... get on the water and just sail the boat. Don't load it up with tons of gear you THINK you'll need. Time will tell what items to invest the time and money into upgrading. Having said that, a washer would be a nice luxury. A water maker (in my mind) is a given, so the bigger additional hit would be the genset. I can live w/out the ac (though it's nice on hot, still nights), but I doubt solar could carry the electrical load for a washer. Any idea what the water, weight and electrical cost would be? A big thumbs up on the chart plotter

Galley:
The more I think about this one, I'm seeing the real advantage to the galley down for a f/t cruiser. The space is significantly greater than a galley up layout (for a cat of this class) and the TPI dungeon-less configuration is one that I can happily live with.

Budget:
LOL... I won't push it I've heard a good rule of thumb is 10% of purchase price for annual maintenance.

Sail Plan:
I'm sure this is too expensive to be worthwhile, but did you ever consider changing out to a full genoa for greater power?

Bimini:
Approx cost of upgrading from canvas to hardtop?

....probably more questions to come, thanks for the patience and detailed answers!
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Old 13-01-2008, 15:43   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zzzixxx View Post
Sorry
..enough so that I don't bonk my head when walking around.

Not really helpful, huh?

Cheers,

Brad
Correct!
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Old 13-01-2008, 15:48   #14
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Lagoon 42 TPI

"Rigging:
I think my real interest in running all lines to the helm, is that I may well be singlehanding, so it'd be easier to run the main halyard and reefing lines aft. This would be especially convenient (and safe) in heavy weather."

Again, that's exactly what I thought..and planned to do. My girlfriend, who accompanied me on the cruise, was my only crew and had zero sailing experience, so for several months I was essentially single handing. I'm glad I left the original configuration. I can provide more details as to why if you really want to know.

"Having said that, a washer would be a nice luxury. A water maker (in my mind) is a given, so the bigger additional hit would be the genset. I can live w/out the ac (though it's nice on hot, still nights), but I doubt solar could carry the electrical load for a washer. Any idea what the water, weight and electrical cost would be? A big thumbs up on the chart plotter "

No idea, but I would advise to live without it for awhile and see if you really want it. Again, I can elaborate on this but for the sake of other readers, I'll see if anyone wants more details first. Short version - you don't need many clothes in the Caribbean, so not much needs laundry.

"Galley:
The more I think about this one, I'm seeing the real advantage to the galley down for a f/t cruiser. The space is significantly greater than a galley up layout (for a cat of this class) and the TPI dungeon-less configuration is one that I can happily live with."

We get "galley envy" every time someone visits our boat.


"Sail Plan:
I'm sure this is too expensive to be worthwhile, but did you ever consider changing out to a full genoa for greater power?"

Yes, especially since I'm a racer at heart. But the blade has its merits too. I think a larger overlapping headsail on a spirit would be just the trick.

"Bimini:
Approx cost of upgrading from canvas to hardtop?"

Unknown...mine came with a custom hardtop. Strangely, the new owner added the year before he sold the boat. I've heard estimates from 6k to 20k, depending on material and where you have it done.

"....probably more questions to come, thanks for the patience and detailed answers!"

No problem.

I didn't want to do this in the forum...somehow seems the wrong place, but I must tell you that our TPI is now for sale too. A year ago, I was exactly where you are today...I spent six months looking at boats all over the country and doing research...now I'm at the end of my cruise and, sadly, it's time to sell the boat and move back on dry land. If you're seriously looking, then we should talk, because within days the boat will go into brokerage and the cost goes up by 10%. If you're interested, let's talk, but let's do it outside of the forum.

Cheers,

Brad
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Old 13-01-2008, 16:48   #15
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Hi cbcat - wishing you luck and clear thinking on your search.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cbcat View Post
....a washer would be a nice luxury. A water maker (in my mind) is a given, so the bigger additional hit would be the genset. I can live w/out the ac (though it's nice on hot, still nights), but I doubt solar could carry the electrical load for a washer.
We have no genset nor A/C (although we have a window unit we run when shore power is available). But we do have a washer/dryer that runs just fine on the inverter. Most of our power comes from solars, but we limit running the washer to when we have to motor: "OK, no wind! This means clean underwear!!!" Limiting washing to times when you're motoring or otherwise have to run the engines for charging also makes sense because this is when you can have plenty of hot water if needed.

That said, the "dryer" function of the "washer/dryer" is a joke: it amounts to running a LOT of relatively cool water through the washer filled with relatively warmer damp clothes. Condensation is the drying mechanism. Clothes pins and life lines work WAY better.

For sure, and obviously, forget about the washer if you don't have a water maker. Water makers suck a lot of power, but I recommend you do not compromise on this - it'll make life a lot more pleasant AND permit the option of a washer.

Bottom line - IMHO - you don't need a gen set if you have sufficient solars/wind gens to power your water maker intermittantly and every thing else other than A/C.

Dave
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