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Old 24-08-2011, 01:07   #46
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Old 24-08-2011, 02:42   #47
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Re: Fastnet Race

As thread starter I must apologise for the directions this is drifting into. I carefully posted it in [Multihulls] to avoid attracting the attention of dinosaurs.
What has annoyed me is the Multi capsize to Mono capsize comments, particularly regarding brain failure.
1. No Multi capsized in this event (to my knowledge). I saw one listed as 'dismasted'.
2. It is the organisers responsibility to set and confirm the minimum safety standards for participating. There have been problems before, and I am very concerned that these multi million pound yachts don't bother to protect their crew with properly fitted out ocean rated lifeboats (Epirb, GPS and VHF and WaterMaker must be a minimum for something that may sink following a whale/container strike at the speeds they do. Mid Atlantic is not the place to change the cargo list.
3. That a capsize wasn't considered is foolish, or to tight a focus.
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Old 24-08-2011, 03:50   #48
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Re: Fastnet Race

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eleven View Post
As thread starter I must apologise for the directions this is drifting into. I carefully posted it in [Multihulls] to avoid attracting the attention of dinosaurs.
What has annoyed me is the Multi capsize to Mono capsize comments, particularly regarding brain failure.
1. No Multi capsized in this event (to my knowledge). I saw one listed as 'dismasted'.
2. It is the organisers responsibility to set and confirm the minimum safety standards for participating. There have been problems before, and I am very concerned that these multi million pound yachts don't bother to protect their crew with properly fitted out ocean rated lifeboats (Epirb, GPS and VHF and WaterMaker must be a minimum for something that may sink following a whale/container strike at the speeds they do. Mid Atlantic is not the place to change the cargo list.
3. That a capsize wasn't considered is foolish, or to tight a focus.
I'm trying not to read too much between the lines, but are you saying multi's are superior because no multi's capsized in this race? Meanwhile one of the greatest long distance sailors ever flips his tri in fairly innocuous conditions.

I think for long distance sailing I would rather take my chances at the keel falling off, then being hit by a rogue gust.
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Old 24-08-2011, 05:22   #49
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Re: Fastnet Race

When Eric Tabarly, who set more milestones of multihull sailing, can drown at sea, after falling off a 100yr old gaffer, anything is possible.
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Old 24-08-2011, 05:45   #50
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Re: Fastnet Race

A racing Multi flipping is simply part of the risk. A racing Mono having bits fall off (like keels!) is also just part of the risk.......some of these design foibles do of course get passed along to the mainstream market.
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Old 24-08-2011, 07:06   #51
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Re: Fastnet Race

Word on the docks is Rambler "touched" Fasnet Rock. The question then becomes did the keel fall off or was it ripped off.
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Old 24-08-2011, 08:04   #52
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Re: Fastnet Race

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Originally Posted by Factor View Post
I thought it was only multis that capsized, have all those experts been leading me astray?
Mono do too, BUT usually they have to lose their keel first. I'll bet you the capsized boat wasn't a FULL KEELER!!
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Old 24-08-2011, 08:06   #53
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Re: Fastnet Race

Rambler "touched" Fasnet Rock?
My point precisely. Insufficient attention had been paid to 'What If's' in the fitting out of boat and crew. That so many of the crew were separated from the floating hull, and near to their cold water limits, raises the hackles when this boat was no doubt similarly kitted out for a successful transatlantic record attempt. Perhaps they'd plotted a course to avoid all whales and containers, other mono's (cruising) and so on.
Too often crew assume the skipper is responsible for safety. It doesn't work that way on building sites - it's up to the individual. The 'skipper' is responsible for making sure no-one breaches the safety rules. Not compatible to record breaking attempts, or race winning. I like the way RNLI are now charging for costs incurred for rescuing ill prepared or downright stupid incidents.
I wasn't charged because I had Radio, Liferaft, we were wearing lifevests and were quite happy to be aground on a gravel bank in a f7, gusting 8 because I was on a solidly built (but slow) Cruising Cat.
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Old 24-08-2011, 08:16   #54
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Re: Fastnet Race

alan_za
Lets not start this all over again. Refer to the Queens Birthday Storm which caught out a racing fleet a few years ago. Tasman to New Zealand I think.
Mono's were lost, many were rolled repeatedly, some Cats were deserted by distressed crew but were then found many days later still sailing.
Racing is a different matter. F1 killed several people a year in the 60's and 70's before the rules were changed.
It's not the boat that kills people, it's the crews' level of preparation. They'll spend days polishing the hulls and forget to take the gas cylinder out of their life vests when they go below. The Fastnet waters were fairly warm, but without a wet suit survival times are quite limited. F1 drivers wear multi-layer fire proof suits in high cockpit temperatures. Race crews wear uniform shorts and short sleeve shirts because rescue will be quick should they fall off.
Except for - . "Oh Dear. It's fallen over. Didn't expect that! It's only f9."
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Old 24-08-2011, 09:13   #55
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Re: Fastnet Race

All the large racing yachts are very much on the edge. They are essentially test platforms that are being pushed to destruction. Good news is they are very well funded and have professional crews, death on one of these monsters is a rare occurance. Rambler loosing a keel is no more suprising then Idec flipping or Groupama 3 breaking off an ama and capsizing.
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Old 24-08-2011, 11:53   #56
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Re: Fastnet Race

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Originally Posted by Joli View Post
All the large racing yachts are very much on the edge. They are essentially test platforms that are being pushed to destruction. Good news is they are very well funded and have professional crews, death on one of these monsters is a rare occurance. Rambler loosing a keel is no more suprising then Idec flipping or Groupama 3 breaking off an ama and capsizing.
Yes, I think that's exactly right.

The headline is "Man bites Dog" but the story is that an experimental craft broke. That is not such a crazy thing. However, Juan K should be ashamed at the very least that the life rafts were not available to the crew after the capsize. And I still think there are things worth pondering even for the general ocean sailing public. Boats get into trouble. "In time anything that can go wrong will." All boats can capsize, swamp, burn etc. Multis can and do sink and monos can and do capsize.

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Old 24-08-2011, 16:09   #57
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Re: Fastnet Race

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Mono do too, BUT usually they have to lose their keel first. I'll bet you the capsized boat wasn't a FULL KEELER!!

Not so long ago there were photo's in this forum of a full keel cruising mono (barely) floating upside-down. Keel still attached. An entire family was lost. It happens.
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Old 24-08-2011, 16:20   #58
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Re: Fastnet Race

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Not so long ago there were photo's in this forum of a full keel cruising mono (barely) floating upside-down. Keel still attached. An entire family was lost. It happens.
I'd be very interested to learn how that could possibly happen, and where those photos were posted.
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Old 24-08-2011, 16:29   #59
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Re: Fastnet Race

It was a couple of years ago, happened off South Africa. The boat was missing for quite a while, a few weeks IIRC, then found barely afloat upside down. The keel was still there.

How could it possibly happen? Look at the stability curves of most monohulls - they almost always have SOME stability upside-down.

There were photo's in CF, I wouldn't know where to start looking for them though.

edit: just tried the search function, and for some reason I cant even get a cursor in the search box.
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Old 24-08-2011, 19:08   #60
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Re: Fastnet Race

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I'd be very interested to learn how that could possibly happen, and where those photos were posted.
I didn't hear about that one. I can imagine an internally ballasted full keel yacht having its ballast shift or a wide or shallow yacht being sufficiently stable to stay inverted. While many traditional full keel yachts are narrow and have very little inverted stability I wonder about some of the newer wide designs. And some older designs would be interesting to test too. I wonder if you put a closed flat deck on, say, a Herreshoff 12 1/2 if it wouldn't be stable upside down...

And, of course, full keels can have other problems. An externally ballasted full keel yacht could drop her ballast just like a fin keeler. I have seen a full keel boat go on a reef and lose most of its ballast of cement and scrap through a hole and I've witnessed a full keel yacht capsize and sink. To be fair it was a Person Ensign which has a big open cockpit.

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