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Old 04-08-2008, 01:59   #106
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David M posted this below a few days ago and I thought this would bring the thread back in line talking about practical cruising theme's. Instead we drop back into a mud slinging, dick measuring contest again.
I don't know about the rest of the members but I'm getting pi**ed off with threads being taken over with reams of drivel about building techniques, weight to length ratio's, sailing as fast as possible with no regard to safety and other crap. All of us prior to buying a boat probably looked at these figures and then took a view on the functionality of the boat in question for the purposes we required them for. The last thing any boat owner needs is some other guy stating that his boat has a D/L ratio of X and because of that will sail like a log.
I know my boat isn't the fastest and it will probably weigh around 13000kg fully loaded but I don't give a sh*t, I'm happy with my decision and will still hopefully be happy in 10 years time with thousands of miles under the keels.
Please take your mud slinging and calculations to the correct place or go and try the Sailing Anarchy Forum where this sort of thing is discussed in greater detail by other comercial vendors.
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As is being hinted at, Its all a big compromise. There are no truly innovative technologies except in perhaps the area of strength to weight ratios. The physics of the interface between the atmosphere and the water will always be the same. Every time one thing is improved, it is almost always the case that something else has to be made worse. Get the boat that works best for your purposes. There is no ideal boat. The boat has to fit the individuals purposes. No one boat will ever suit everyone....its not even close.

Naval architects will boast about how their boat is the best. But you have to ask in return...best for me?

So what happens is people debate what is the best design when it would probably be a lot more productive to debate what is the best design for you.
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Old 04-08-2008, 03:17   #107
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Adaero View Post
David M posted this below a few days ago and I thought this would bring the thread back in line talking about practical cruising theme's. Instead we drop back into a mud slinging, dick measuring contest again.
I don't know about the rest of the members but I'm getting pi**ed off with threads being taken over with reams of drivel about building techniques, weight to length ratio's, sailing as fast as possible with no regard to safety and other crap. All of us prior to buying a boat probably looked at these figures and then took a view on the functionality of the boat in question for the purposes we required them for. The last thing any boat owner needs is some other guy stating that his boat has a D/L ratio of X and because of that will sail like a log.
I know my boat isn't the fastest and it will probably weigh around 13000kg fully loaded but I don't give a sh*t, I'm happy with my decision and will still hopefully be happy in 10 years time with thousands of miles under the keels.
Please take your mud slinging and calculations to the correct place or go and try the Sailing Anarchy Forum where this sort of thing is discussed in greater detail by other comercial vendors.
Adaero
Last time I looked at my computer, I had the option to click or not click on a topic to read it.

Many of us are doing exactly what you state below and the topic and getting true facts are important in viewing the functionality and performance in our decision making process. Sorry you not longer give a sh*t.

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All of us prior to buying a boat probably looked at these figures and then took a view on the functionality of the boat in question for the purposes we required them for.
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Old 04-08-2008, 04:03   #108
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Greetings

You are right....Virtually everything, including all construction materials and methods, you have listed are standards, or an option, with nearly all of todays catamaran builders and have been for almost the last ten years. I don't see any real difference on how a FastCat is built and many other boats are built.

Builders like Catana even used kevlar in the hulls a standard and carbon masts and booms are almost a standard, before they went under. Using polyurethane paint in in place of gelcoat has also been widely used in commercial boat building for years, and nearly exclusively in one off boat building of even longer.

Schionnings Waterline 1480 is a bigger boat than your 455, having a foot wider beam and longer waterline length, but it still weighs the same or less than your 455. They even use that heavy balsa construction that you frown upon and build a lighter boat per foot. The only real place I see a weight savings in your designs is that you are simply building smaller boats and trying to compare them to boats that are couple foot wider and have longer waterline length.

St. Francis has tried building their 48, which you call your FastCat 48, using the infusion method and didn't find a significant weight savings over vacuum bagging. They are now even going to vinylester resin in the new 50's. I've heard the asking price on your old Fastcat 48 which you show on your web site and state is a FastCat 48 (actually a SF 48) is more than a brand new loaded SF 50? That's confusing?

We have had the cost of raw materials, for hull construction, discussion on the list before. If I remember correctly, the major cost for building a cat is labor. The raw construction materials cost for a catamaran hull is only 10 to 15% of the total boat selling price. When boat builder try to justify that an increase in raw hull material cost, as justification for a major increase in selling price...it's a stretch. Carbon cloth is normally only used in high stress areas and very few pounds are used. Even, kevlar reinforcement in hulls doesn't add significant costs.

I have a quote for a bare 46' catamaran hull ready to install furniture, resin infused using vinylester resin and dvinycell foam throughout, and the materials alone broken out only cost $55,000.

Sure, using less thick foam for construction material is an option to save weight, all boat builders have that option, the risk is pushing into race boat design and having more hull flex. There would be nothing more disconcerting to me than going below in a heavy sea and watching my boat pulse like race boats do.

Lexan windows have been widely used for years, but you can also expect to replace them every 6 to 8 years, as they start to craze and crack. When I recently replaced all the crazed window in my boat, the plastic manufacturer, said only use a high quality on cast acrylic, because Lexan has very low UV resistance and crazes quickly. IMHO, tempered laminated safety glass is a far better option, even with the slight weight penalty. It will look good for fifty years. The cost to replace crazed plastic windows every five or eight years is major.

As purchased items, anyone could specify their builder to supply lithium batteries or the highest efficiency solar cells, if they wanted to pay the considerable extra cost.

You bring up payload capability all the time. We have had the discussion before. I look at many of the photos of your boats sitting in the water and sailing, and they all set submerge close to the water line. Your stated load carrying capability per inch of submergence which is actually less other cats the same size. You've agreed before that a fully loaded FastCat would sit nearly a foot deeper in the water than lightly loaded one.

It appears that you are rather generous with your load rating system. I just don't think I would want to sail this boat in the photo with it submerged a foot deeper. If it is an overload test, please show me a photo of this same boat lightly loaded with the waterline a foot higher out of the water. What is the basis of your waterline and load rating?
The Load rating system is the same for all CE certified boats , I am not the one that invented that , it is the CE certification bureau and there is no difference between the certification process
DWL is 75 CM or 2 ft 6 inches so that is for an average loaded production boat.
Nice picture you have shown there Just as it is going into a wave
We use lexan Marguard that is guaranteed be GE or now Sabic for 10 years.
St Francis has always used Vinylester in the 48 / 50 and has never infused as far as I know , only vacuum bagged.
A squire meter of hull section of a ST Francis has a weight of around 10 kilo,s while our weight is 5 kilo per squire meter.
The cost of a squire meter of kevlar or Twaron is Euro 55.00 and we use 100 meters in a boat or 5500,00 euro
We use 500 kilo,s of Carbon fiber at a cost of 60 Euro per kilo is 30.000 euro
Epoxy used is 1800 kilo x 7 euro is 12600,00
the cost of closed cell foam per boat is 16000 euro
Basalt is 1400 kilo x 10 Euro = 14000
that bring in a total of 78100 Euro or 122.617,00 USD today So using exotic material raises the price if compared with your $ 55.000.00 with 67.617.00 and that is pure cost of the raw materials
I would estimate that the use of these exotic materials saves around 1500 kilo or 45 us per kilo saved, some sailors would not think of doing this but others do like having a lighter boat.

I have attached a photo taken in the same photo session but now not into a wave.
The boat here is loaded with full water and diesel , 6 people on the boat and a complete ocean crossing package or a total weight of 8 tons metric , 8000 kilo , 17600 lbs
The asking price for my St Francis includes well over 200.000 extra,s in Euro is imported transported and Duty paid In Europe and this price is Euro 300.000 less a new one .
Catana did not go Under they are still building boats and have many orders, They have applied for bankrupty protection. I understand that there are companies in the states that can function for years with the same setup.
Our immersion rate is off course higher than a similar sized boat since our waterline length to width ratio is 1 : 13 instead of 1 : 8 as most cruising cats have The Immersion rate on a Cruising cat with the 1 : 8 waterline length to width ratio should be almost 50 % better since these hulls are 50 % wider.That is the reason they are called cruising cats .
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Old 04-08-2008, 08:32   #109
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"threads being taken over with reams of drivel about building techniques, weight to length ratio's, sailing as fast as possible with no regard to safety and other crap. All of us prior to buying a boat probably looked at these figures and then took a view on the functionality of the boat in question for the purposes we required them for. The last thing any boat owner needs is some other guy stating that his boat has a D/L ratio of X and because of that will sail like a log." You may be ignorant of the ramifications of these issues, but they are germane to the topic of the thread, even if you aren't educated enough to understand how. It's unfortunate that you react to this opportunity to become more educated with hostility rather than interest, but since you don't own the website, you don't get to control the content.
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Old 04-08-2008, 08:38   #110
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"threads being taken over with reams of drivel about building techniques, weight to length ratio's, sailing as fast as possible with no regard to safety and other crap. All of us prior to buying a boat probably looked at these figures and then took a view on the functionality of the boat in question for the purposes we required them for. The last thing any boat owner needs is some other guy stating that his boat has a D/L ratio of X and because of that will sail like a log." You may be ignorant of the ramifications of these issues, but they are germane to the topic of the thread, even if you aren't educated enough to understand how. It's unfortunate that you react to this opportunity to become more educated with hostility rather than interest, but since you don't own the website, you don't get to control the content.
I was under the impression that this thread was about Fast Cruising catamarans and how fast ? Not about unsafe and other crap ?

Greetings
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Old 04-08-2008, 09:06   #111
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Originally Posted by BigCat View Post
"threads being taken over with reams of drivel about building techniques, weight to length ratio's, sailing as fast as possible with no regard to safety and other crap. All of us prior to buying a boat probably looked at these figures and then took a view on the functionality of the boat in question for the purposes we required them for. The last thing any boat owner needs is some other guy stating that his boat has a D/L ratio of X and because of that will sail like a log." You may be ignorant of the ramifications of these issues, but they are germane to the topic of the thread, even if you aren't educated enough to understand how. It's unfortunate that you react to this opportunity to become more educated with hostility rather than interest, but since you don't own the website, you don't get to control the content.
My point has been proved, just look at who has posted since my post!!
If the three of you want to rip each other to shreads then fine just do it somewhere else. It's like being in a school yard, point scoring off each other, it's not a genuine debate it's just a slanging match. Its becoming more boring than the Multi or Mono debate!!

BigCat, I'll ignore the uneducated and ignorant comment, at least it takes the flack off Gideon for a while!!
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Old 04-08-2008, 09:47   #112
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OK, so we'd all like to think our boat is best, mine will be too.
Fastest? Well, this is a cruisers forum but I drive a car and watch F1 Motor racing.
It's interesting but I'm not buying one.
More interesting is how do I get the best out of my budget and my boat.
Taller mast, better cut sails, assess the budget for replacement at three years when they start to sag a little bit instead of eight when they are good as spares.
Do I keep the old ones for spares or get the weight off the boat.
Sailmakers tell me five years is about right. They can't stop mildew growing, only a good sailor will always get the salt cyrstals out of the sails. The new materials should last as long as the proven materials and hold shape for longer.
Learning the sails you've got and buying better shaped sails later on seems the way to go.
My concern is light airs performance as I hope to do some longer trips. Speed, for a cruiser, is usually limited by comfort, making the best of lighter winds will affect trip times.
My target is still an old Prout. Lots of knowledge still available if I can ferret it out.
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Old 04-08-2008, 10:02   #113
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NO MATTER WHAT!!!!! I still enjoyed doing 18+ knots on my cat. Loaded down with everything for cruising from sewing machine, 2 folding motobikes, and all the stuff that accumulate by living on a boat for 4 years. She felt like a train on a set of rails.....WHOOOOPEEEEE!!!!!!!. Nothing was unsafe about it at all
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Old 04-08-2008, 14:58   #114
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NO MATTER WHAT!!!!! I still enjoyed doing 18+ knots on my cat. Loaded down with everything for cruising from sewing machine, 2 folding motobikes, and all the stuff that accumulate by living on a boat for 4 years. She felt like a train on a set of rails.....WHOOOOPEEEEE!!!!!!!. Nothing was unsafe about it at all
Well said. I even posted a link to a video of us sailing at 16 knots in a 38 footer, you could easily have slept on the boat at that speed. It wasn't anywhere near pushing the boat to it's limits, and it certainly wasn't surfing. Going fast is fun!
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Old 04-08-2008, 15:04   #115
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You may be ignorant of the ramifications of these issues, but they are germane to the topic of the thread, even if you aren't educated enough to understand how. It's unfortunate that you react to this opportunity to become more educated with hostility rather than interest, but since you don't own the website, you don't get to control the content.
I seem to recall you promising not to make these discussions personal. (Mind you, you broke that promise in the very same post) But you seem to resort to it anytime someone disagrees with you.

Calling someone ignorant and uneducated is personal IMHO. (At least it wasn't me this time.)
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Old 04-08-2008, 15:26   #116
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44,

Where's your link? I love watching tnkflbait's CSK fly effortlessly at 10 knots.
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Old 04-08-2008, 15:51   #117
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post #99 in this thread.
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Old 04-08-2008, 18:08   #118
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My comments have been taken out of context

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I seem to recall you promising not to make these discussions personal. (Mind you, you broke that promise in the very same post) But you seem to resort to it anytime someone disagrees with you.

Calling someone ignorant and uneducated is personal IMHO. (At least it wasn't me this time.)
You have to take my comments out of context to turn them into insults. "You may be ignorant of" is not, "you are ignorant," and "opportunity to become more educated," isn't 'you are uneducated.' However, "drivel" is pretty clearly insulting, though I related to it as a sign of defensiveness rather than as being really about me. I truly believe that it is unfortunate if you react to the opportunity for learning with hostility. I react to such opportunities as interesting and valuable. It it is hopelessly over my head, as happens occasionally, especially if it involves math using Greek letters, I don't respond with defensive hostility, I just sigh and move on. 80% of work by scientists like Marchaj or Tom Speer is over my head, but I greatly value the 20% I can follow.

Even though I sometime criticize Fastcat, I was interested to learn something I didn't know, namely that his boat has a hull length / beam of 13. You have to learn a little to understand the ramifications of that, but I haven't exactly horded the knowledge - I have posted a link to an article by someone else that explains the ramifications of that numerous times on these pages. Still, you can take a horse to water, but you can't make him drink.

The net gain I have gotten out of this discussion about Fastcat 435 is that it isn't all that light, but the hulls are indeed fairly narrow for a cruising catamaran. This interests me in light of the excellent performance of 09's delivery trip to Norway, because the implication I get out of this is that narrow hulls can lead to great performance even if the catamaran isn't all that light. I regard this as a potentially valuable insight, and anyone who designs boats or choses between them for his own use can make use of this knowledge.
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Old 04-08-2008, 18:39   #119
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the original question of thie thread was........

Fast Cruisingcatamarans? How fast?
How fast is the fastest you have sailed with your cruisingcatamaran?

Brand, Model, wind, speed?

All of this "expert" testamony is giving me a headache. This simple question asked for our experiences at sea. Period.

Boys, boys, boys. An online war benifits no one and will more than likely keep many an experienced multihull sailor from sharing their sea knowledge with others.

The tone of the Multihull section of this forum needs to change.
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Old 04-08-2008, 19:16   #120
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No hostility on my part. I was simply asking Bigcat to honour his own promise and stop making personal remarks about people.

That in itself would represent a pleasant change in the tone around here IMHO.
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