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Old 31-07-2008, 16:11   #61
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Just curious to see how big differences it is between cruisingcatamarans. The best should have been to ask as you said, speed in x wind. Yes, but where i lives it´s a archipelago and 90% of my sailingtime is inshore without big waves with surf and we have No tidal water. So i forgot that parameter. With something between 24000-30000 islands it´s hard navigation. And if you ask someone in sweden he can look at his GPS and say speed over ground is x knots. Pretty easy over here...

I have much experience of 40-45f monohull, the only multi i owned was a Tornado for 8 years.

So i was wondering how much faster i can go with a outremer vs a FP... And how little wind she need to sail in 5 knots? The Lagoon, FP, Nautitech have so much interiorspace so i just wondering how much more fun do i have on a boat with more narrow hulls with a smaller interior like a outremer. I understund that is not ONE answer on this...

Ok, a lagoon, FP or simula is capable of around 15-18knots, and can easily sail around 8-10 knots.
A outreemer, Freydis and Fastcat can sail 22-25 knots, and is probably easy to sail in 10-15 knots? just guessing... And a average over atlantic is a safe trip so offcause you reef in time etc.
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Old 31-07-2008, 17:05   #62
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Up here in the Baltic we normally have alot less wind than say in the Caribbean, so light air performance is the key issue IMO.

I know that the FP's Lagoons etc will not easily achieve 10 knots, reckon on 45% of TWS for lower winds, and probably around 25 knots of wind for 10 knots boatspeed on a 40-44 footer.

Your impression of the speeds of the Fastcat, Outremer and Freydis are also grossly overestimated IMO. I have some friends with a very light Outremer 40, they can do around 11-14 knots in 20 knots TWS on a reach.

For a more realistic idea of the Fastcats performance check out the Butterfly blog link on the vendors forum here, (as well as the quality and delivery issues). Nowhere near the claimed windspeed sailing even with a 125 m2 asymmetric kite on a light boat.

Rememember that while the force of the wind grows with the square of the speed, the resistance of the boat grows roughly with the cube.
So double speed = approx. 8 times higher resistance.

Alan
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Old 31-07-2008, 19:58   #63
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Originally Posted by ireaney View Post
I totally agree with Adaero, in 10 knots and also 15knots and 20knots as a maximum at which point I would think most cruisers would start to consider putting a reef in.
This would show the differences between a comfortable cruising cat and a cruiser/racer where the living side becomes less favourable.
G'day,

There is a video of a harryproa in full cruising trim on it's maiden voyage with sails that need some work at The first part is in 10 knots breeze and the boat is sailing at 10 knots. The second part it is up to 15 knots breeze and the speed is 15 knots.

As you can see, it is as far from white knuckle sailing as it is possible to get. One of the people lounging in the cockpit is a journalist, who wrote glowingly about the boat in Multihull World (Australia). The other is his wife, chronically seasick on other boats, who now wants a harryproa.

The only other video I know of showing a cruising boat costing less than a million bucks sailing at windspeed under plain sail is a 44 year old, 33 foot boat, built of ply I think.



Makes you wonder what has happened to the performance part of performance cat design in the last 44 years.

With every man and his dog owning a camera, and all the owners and salesmen claiming how easy the boats are to sail at speed, it also makes you wonder why there are so few video shots of all these claimed top speeds on the web.

regards,

Rob
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Old 01-08-2008, 02:42   #64
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Originally Posted by Nordic cat View Post
Up here in the Baltic we normally have alot less wind than say in the Caribbean, so light air performance is the key issue IMO.

I know that the FP's Lagoons etc will not easily achieve 10 knots, reckon on 45% of TWS for lower winds, and probably around 25 knots of wind for 10 knots boatspeed on a 40-44 footer.

Your impression of the speeds of the Fastcat, Outremer and Freydis are also grossly overestimated IMO. I have some friends with a very light Outremer 40, they can do around 11-14 knots in 20 knots TWS on a reach.

For a more realistic idea of the Fastcats performance check out the Butterfly blog link on the vendors forum here, (as well as the quality and delivery issues). Nowhere near the claimed windspeed sailing even with a 125 m2 asymmetric kite on a light boat.

Rememember that while the force of the wind grows with the square of the speed, the resistance of the boat grows roughly with the cube.
So double speed = approx. 8 times higher resistance.

Alan
Thanks, after this i don´t belive any speed before a realistic video show me that the speed is truth.

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Originally Posted by rob denney View Post
G'day,

There is a video of a harryproa in full cruising trim on it's maiden voyage with sails that need some work at The first part is in 10 knots breeze and the boat is sailing at 10 knots. The second part it is up to 15 knots breeze and the speed is 15 knots.

As you can see, it is as far from white knuckle sailing as it is possible to get. One of the people lounging in the cockpit is a journalist, who wrote glowingly about the boat in Multihull World (Australia). The other is his wife, chronically seasick on other boats, who now wants a harryproa.

The only other video I know of showing a cruising boat costing less than a million bucks sailing at windspeed under plain sail is a 44 year old, 33 foot boat, built of ply I think.



Makes you wonder what has happened to the performance part of performance cat design in the last 44 years.

With every man and his dog owning a camera, and all the owners and salesmen claiming how easy the boats are to sail at speed, it also makes you wonder why there are so few video shots of all these claimed top speeds on the web.

regards,

Rob
Haha...Harry....The Harryproa is lovely..How many sail today?
True about speed...

The most important is that the boat is fun to sail! And can sail in low winds...

Ok, A Lagoon AND a Hobie


Waiting for Settingsail2009 at this forum. He left Holland for the trip to Stavanger if i remember right. And hes Fastcat 435 Hull #1.... waiting for a report.
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Old 01-08-2008, 09:56   #65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nordic cat View Post
Up here in the Baltic we normally have alot less wind than say in the Caribbean, so light air performance is the key issue IMO.

I know that the FP's Lagoons etc will not easily achieve 10 knots, reckon on 45% of TWS for lower winds, and probably around 25 knots of wind for 10 knots boatspeed on a 40-44 footer.

Your impression of the speeds of the Fastcat, Outremer and Freydis are also grossly overestimated IMO. I have some friends with a very light Outremer 40, they can do around 11-14 knots in 20 knots TWS on a reach.

For a more realistic idea of the Fastcats performance check out the Butterfly blog link on the vendors forum here, (as well as the quality and delivery issues). Nowhere near the claimed windspeed sailing even with a 125 m2 asymmetric kite on a light boat.

Rememember that while the force of the wind grows with the square of the speed, the resistance of the boat grows roughly with the cube.
So double speed = approx. 8 times higher resistance.

Alan
I find it odd that you mention the blog list of the Butterfly while that cat is in the Harbor of Durban being readied for the owners , it has test sailed twice with minimal winds and was still able to get around 90 % of wind speed. You seem very prejudiced against the FastCat although you have never sailed one and have been on board only once while at the La Rochelle boat show.
As I have told you before you are always welcome for a sail so at least you do not have to tell others prejudiced nonsense about a boat you have never sailed.

Greetings and a good weekend

Gideon
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Old 01-08-2008, 10:10   #66
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I find it odd that you mention the blog list of the Butterfly while that cat is in the Harbor of Durban being readied for the owners , it has test sailed twice with minimal winds and was still able to get around 90 % of wind speed. You seem very prejudiced against the FastCat although you have never sailed one and have been on board only once while at the La Rochelle boat show.
As I have told you before you are always welcome for a sail so at least you do not have to tell others prejudiced nonsense about a boat you have never sailed.

Greetings and a good weekend

Gideon
SettingSail2009 from this forum is soon in Norway with the his Fastcat 435. He can tell us all about he 435
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Old 01-08-2008, 10:51   #67
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This thread had got me thinking about cruising cats and light air performance. It is my understanding that at lower speeds friction (wetted surface) is the major cause of drag. As one approaches hull speed, wavemaking becomes the dominant speed-limiting factor. Given that much cruising is done in light airs would it not be more advantageous to have a hull shape that mimimized wetted surface at the expense of top end speed? What I am getting at is that for light air performance perhaps a wider hull with a flatter bottom might be a better performer than a slender hull with a more rouded or V'ed profile. The wider, flatter hulls would have an additional advantage in that a cruising payload would depress the hulls less, resulting in a slower increase in wetted surface and theoretically less decrease in light air performance as the boat is loaded. Bridgedeck clearance would also suffer less. Makes me wonder if a stripped down Bahia (remove generator, ac, extra cabins, heads etc.) might not outperform an Outremer in light air. Looking forward to your thoughts.

Mike
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Old 01-08-2008, 11:05   #68
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Real world example

I've just seen that Slapdash (www.slapdash.com), a Gemini 105Mc with a Canadian couple on board, made it from the Galapagos to Fatu Hiva in 21 days. This is an average of 6 knots and 140+ mile days, with two crew and overloaded with diesel and supplies for the trip.

Cheers.
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Old 01-08-2008, 11:13   #69
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I've just seen that Slapdash (www.slapdash.com), a Gemini 105Mc with a Canadian couple on board, made it from the Galapagos to Fatu Hiva in 21 days. This is an average of 6 knots and 140+ mile days, with two crew and overloaded with diesel and supplies for the trip.

Cheers.
Glad to hear it! I checked their site two days ago, but no update. By the way, the link is

theslapdash.com

I must admit, I was a little worried about whether they would make it.
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Old 01-08-2008, 15:42   #70
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I find it odd that you mention the blog list of the Butterfly while that cat is in the Harbor of Durban being readied for the owners , it has test sailed twice with minimal winds and was still able to get around 90 % of wind speed. You seem very prejudiced against the FastCat although you have never sailed one and have been on board only once while at the La Rochelle boat show.
As I have told you before you are always welcome for a sail so at least you do not have to tell others prejudiced nonsense about a boat you have never sailed.

Greetings and a good weekend

Gideon
I am not prejudiced against the Fastcat, I just prefer FACTS to claims.
You yourself have posted the link to the blog, but here it is again, interesting reading. Maybe your customers have got it wrong? The log is incorrectly calibrated?

I am only attempting to ensure that people new to cats don't believe all the exaggerated claims posted here about windspeed sailing on a Fastcat.

Here is one quote by the owners of the Fastcat 455>:" Later, with a wind speed (true) of 15 knots, she calmly accelerated to give 9 knots on her best point of sail"
The link is here: of Butterfly and Barnacle

Later with the 125 m2 asymmetric up, Quote" The big event of this morning was flying the spinny. It’s as pretty as you could wish for - and although not that large at 125 sq metres, still gave us an impressive - “5.7 knots boat speed with 8 knots of apparent wind at 90 degrees”

Windspeed sailing??????


A very interesting blog, see the blog from Aug. 1st: Quote" our boat is so ludicrously overdue - and the clock is still ticking - such that we fear we’ll be on zimmers and have a full set of grandchildren by the time it’s finally bloody finished; "

Link is here: of Butterfly and Barnacle

You persist in making peformance claims that are exaggerated to say the least, and the proof was on your own site, and is now on the sites of Fastcat owners.

At least for the 2 latest blogs, you can't claim that they didn't know what they were doing, as you were on board. and this is your latest and lightest boat to date according to your own claims.

Cats can sail fast, but 9 knots in 15 true is no way up at the top end of the performance cruiser market. It's only slightly better than the average charter cat of similar size that would probably due around 8 knots under the same conditions.

A good 44 foot mono will do the same.

Whenever you are faced with facts that prove your claims for speed are exorbitant, you invite me for a sail, thanks, I might take you up on it, but please allow me to carry my own wind speed gauge and gps


Greetings

Alan
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Old 02-08-2008, 01:53   #71
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Quote:
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I am not prejudiced against the Fastcat, I just prefer FACTS to claims.
You yourself have posted the link to the blog, but here it is again, interesting reading. Maybe your customers have got it wrong? The log is incorrectly calibrated?

I am only attempting to ensure that people new to cats don't believe all the exaggerated claims posted here about windspeed sailing on a Fastcat.

Here is one quote by the owners of the Fastcat 455>:" Later, with a wind speed (true) of 15 knots, she calmly accelerated to give 9 knots on her best point of sail"
The link is here: of Butterfly and Barnacle

Later with the 125 m2 asymmetric up, Quote" The big event of this morning was flying the spinny. It’s as pretty as you could wish for - and although not that large at 125 sq metres, still gave us an impressive - “5.7 knots boat speed with 8 knots of apparent wind at 90 degrees”

Windspeed sailing??????


A very interesting blog, see the blog from Aug. 1st: Quote" our boat is so ludicrously overdue - and the clock is still ticking - such that we fear we’ll be on zimmers and have a full set of grandchildren by the time it’s finally bloody finished; "

Link is here: of Butterfly and Barnacle

You persist in making peformance claims that are exaggerated to say the least, and the proof was on your own site, and is now on the sites of Fastcat owners.

At least for the 2 latest blogs, you can't claim that they didn't know what they were doing, as you were on board. and this is your latest and lightest boat to date according to your own claims.

Cats can sail fast, but 9 knots in 15 true is no way up at the top end of the performance cruiser market. It's only slightly better than the average charter cat of similar size that would probably due around 8 knots under the same conditions.

A good 44 foot mono will do the same.

Whenever you are faced with facts that prove your claims for speed are exorbitant, you invite me for a sail, thanks, I might take you up on it, but please allow me to carry my own wind speed gauge and gps


Greetings

Alan
If you put in facts Alan, put in all the facts like the fact that the rig for Butterfly is 12 % smaller because the owners want to sail the inter coastal waterway, the mast is shortened by 1.5 meters and the sail area is smaller. In this test sail mentioned the Jib was not yet good and has been altered since. It was the first sail with Butterfly ever and all the mast was not set right yet ( to much prebend). Calibration of the log was not done yet and yes the boat is late due to many reasons and not in the least the smaller rig and the fact that we will only let the boat and owners go when they are completely satisfied.Among one of the other reasons the boat is late is the addition of the longer bow that we have given to the new owners because the boat sails better.I am a perfectionist and that costs time as you are well aware off ( Look at all the improvements you have done to your Tobago)
We want our customers to be completely happy , A FastCat is no mass produced Cat but more like a custom boat and that fact our customers like very much.
Once the boat is completely ready we will give you the actual performance data,s with calibrated log and correct set sails but still with a smaller rig!!!

Greetings

Gideon
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Old 02-08-2008, 03:15   #72
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Sounds good. And the facts that the boat is late is not a speed question. It´s between buyer and seller, and their contract.
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Old 02-08-2008, 04:52   #73
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Switch 51 loaded for cruising with 6 on board - 20kts surfing. We usually plan on 200 mile days but we have done 2 consecutive 240 mile days - again with surfing waves to help.
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Old 02-08-2008, 05:06   #74
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Switch 51 loaded for cruising with 6 on board - 20kts surfing. We usually plan on 200 mile days but we have done 2 consecutive 240 mile days - again with surfing waves to help.
The Switch looks very nice. Who is the builder? www?
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Old 02-08-2008, 05:29   #75
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Switch is out of biz sorry to say

Switch went the way of Catana and closed up shop. they made a total of 16 boats I think. there are a couple for sale on yachtworld.com - the euro/dollar makes them pretty pricey though..... It is a FANTASTIC boat if I do say so myself. Light and fast and decently roomy. A Lagoon 440 or 420 seems larger inside - but they don't sail quite as fast.

JB
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