Cruisers Forum
 


Join CruisersForum Today

Reply
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 30-07-2008, 06:24   #31
Registered User
 
freetime's Avatar

Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Stockholm, Sweden
Posts: 685
Images: 2
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eleven View Post
So - Come on you Cat guys. Next get together, even on a pleasant sailing day, log the heading and winds and water speeds.
Let us know what your boat does in the conditions at that time.
Cruisers only? A suitable aid to passage planning - definitely.
And a useful way of balancing performance to comfort before I buy.
Waiting for this....

Or just comparing. A xxx is faster than a xxx in the same size in this wind etc....
__________________

__________________
freetime is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 30-07-2008, 06:31   #32
Registered User
 
Nordic cat's Avatar

Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Denmark
Boat: FP Tobago 35
Posts: 721
I have just returned from 3 weeks holiday cruising around the Baltic, mainly close to shore on my souped up Tobago 35 and have noted sailing speeds, NOT VMG, and true wind speeds.

Winds speed: Boat speed Knots

6 around 4
10 around 6 -7
15 7.5 -8
20 8-9.5
Mainsail and jib only (around 60 sq. metres plus 5 sq.m in the wingmast.)

This was with 4-5 adults, 50 kg RIB on the davits, full fuel and water (300 kgs) 2 bikes and all the other holiday stuff, so probably around 900 to 1000 kgs load, so total weight around 6 tons for a 35 foot boat.

On one leg we were accompanied by an X-37 with 3DL main and jib, at 12 knots wind and 50-55 degrees relative we sailed at the same speed, when the wind increased we pulled away slightly, at 6 knots of wind he left us standing.

On one leg we used the Code 0 on the bowsprit (43 m2) and at around 50-60 degrees relative in 12 -14 knots we were at 9-10 knots boatspeed.

So by adding 50% to the mainsail we can keep up with 37 to 40 ft monos that are sailing well on all points of sail except when the wind gets well aft of the beam. (Unless we use the 90 m2 genakker).

At 20 knots of TWS and above things can get a bit uncomfortable due to the very short choppy seas we get in most areas.


cheers

Alan
__________________

__________________
Nordic cat is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 30-07-2008, 06:33   #33
Marine Service Provider
 
fastcat435's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Amstelveen Netherlands
Boat: FastCat 445 Green Motion
Posts: 1,649
Images: 10
Send a message via Skype™ to fastcat435
Quote:
Originally Posted by freetime View Post
Waiting for this....

Or just comparing. A xxx is faster than a xxx in the same size in this wind etc....
Why not start a poll on speeds ?

Greetings

Gideon
__________________
fastcat435 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 30-07-2008, 06:34   #34
Marine Service Provider
 
fastcat435's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Amstelveen Netherlands
Boat: FastCat 445 Green Motion
Posts: 1,649
Images: 10
Send a message via Skype™ to fastcat435
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nordic cat View Post
I have just returned from 3 weeks holiday cruising around the Baltic, mainly close to shore on my souped up Tobago 35 and have noted sailing speeds, NOT VMG, and true wind speeds.

Winds speed: Boat speed Knots

6 around 4
10 around 6 -7
15 7.5 -8
20 8-9.5
Mainsail and jib only (around 60 sq. metres plus 5 sq.m in the wingmast.)

This was with 4-5 adults, 50 kg RIB on the davits, full fuel and water (300 kgs) 2 bikes and all the other holiday stuff, so probably around 900 to 1000 kgs load, so total weight around 6 tons for a 35 foot boat.

On one leg we were accompanied by an X-37 with 3DL main and jib, at 12 knots wind and 50-55 degrees relative we sailed at the same speed, when the wind increased we pulled away slightly, at 6 knots of wind he left us standing.

On one leg we used the Code 0 on the bowsprit (43 m2) and at around 50-60 degrees relative in 12 -14 knots we were at 9-10 knots boatspeed.

So by adding 50% to the mainsail we can keep up with 37 to 40 ft monos that are sailing well on all points of sail except when the wind gets well aft of the beam. (Unless we use the 90 m2 genakker).

At 20 knots of TWS and above things can get a bit uncomfortable due to the very short choppy seas we get in most areas.


cheers

Alan
Excellent speeds for a 35 ft cat Alan

Greetings
__________________
fastcat435 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 30-07-2008, 06:38   #35
Marine Service Provider
 
Factor's Avatar

Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Brisbane Australia
Boat: Corsair Dash MKII
Posts: 4,081
Quote:
Originally Posted by bayview View Post
Does this mean that if Cruise Missile had only a couple for crew it would be much slower? .
Absolutely, more crew on a long passage means (up to a point) more people on deck for sail trimming and changes - more fresh hands on the tiller, more informed decision making about angles and directions. If I sail alone there is a reef in at night no matter what the weather, If I have a number of crew I will not reef and carry whatever sail I can
__________________
Factor is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 30-07-2008, 06:45   #36
Registered User
 
Nordic cat's Avatar

Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Denmark
Boat: FP Tobago 35
Posts: 721
I just did the figures:

New mast with all fibre rigging
New main
New jib
Code Zero in Kevlar
Gennaker in bag
Bowsprit and reinforcements
New mast aft for the radar.

Around 45 k to get the boat sailing reasonably so around 15 -20 k per knot of boatspeed extra

Alan
__________________
Nordic cat is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 30-07-2008, 06:50   #37
Registered User
 
freetime's Avatar

Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Stockholm, Sweden
Posts: 685
Images: 2
The FP 35 Sounds very fast with all that stuff in the boat. 6 ton and 35 f...

Any pics on the new rig?
__________________
freetime is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 30-07-2008, 06:56   #38
Registered User
 
Nordic cat's Avatar

Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Denmark
Boat: FP Tobago 35
Posts: 721
Will post some this evening....

Alan
__________________
Nordic cat is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 30-07-2008, 07:12   #39
Registered User
 
freetime's Avatar

Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Stockholm, Sweden
Posts: 685
Images: 2
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nordic cat View Post
Will post some this evening....

Alan
You need a homepage with all your ideas and boats...
__________________
freetime is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 30-07-2008, 07:21   #40
CF Adviser

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Wherever our boat is; Playa Zaragoza, Isla Margarita
Boat: 1994 Solaris Sunstream 40
Posts: 2,439
Factor is absolutely correct and, in considering a performance monohull, the extra bodies provide a great deal of 'moveable ballast' that will also improve performance.

As to maximim speeds for a given boat, I fail to see the relevance for cruising sailors. When surfing down big waves while overpowered in high winds any boat can achieve some (dangerously) high speeds. The real issue is performance on certain points of sail, in certain types of seas, carrying a certain load of gear/stores, with comparable (but for cruising, conservative) sail and crews of like ability. There are simply too many variables to arrive at any statistically significant numbers.

Comparison 'rallies' conducted by various sail magazines, in which the same crew try comparable boats in comparable conditions are likely as useful a gauge as anything else; nevertheless, simply because one cat is better in light (or heavy air) while lightly loaded doesn't tell you much about how she will perform in different conditions.

I suspect that prospective purchasers are best advised to test-sail boats they are interested in (hopefully in varying conditions) to determine which boat has the balance of performance/accomodation/comfort/safety/price that best suits their individual needs. As an additional source of information, seeking out opinions form owners of the individual brands/models one is interested in is likely to proved at least some honest, if not exactly unbiased, opinions and information.

Brad
__________________
Southern Star is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 30-07-2008, 07:36   #41
...

Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 483
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nordic cat View Post
I just did the figures:

New mast with all fibre rigging
New main
New jib
Code Zero in Kevlar
Gennaker in bag
Bowsprit and reinforcements
New mast aft for the radar.

Around 45 k€ to get the boat sailing reasonably so around 15 -20 k€ per knot of boatspeed extra

Alan
Hi Alan, Sounds like you had a great time.
So what you are saying the new rig and sails has increased the boat speed by about 2.5 knots at all wind angles, which is excellent.
Was the mast and boom both made out of carbon?
Do you already have feathering/folding props?
Anyway 12,000 per knot is nothing when you have done 12,000 miles.
Thanks
Ian
__________________
ireaney is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 30-07-2008, 07:57   #42
Registered User
 
Nordic cat's Avatar

Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Denmark
Boat: FP Tobago 35
Posts: 721
Hi Ian,

Already had the folding props.

The mast is a standard 330mm chord, wing profile in aluminium, the boom is a standard Selden aluminium profile.

I like the 12000 mile comment

I will also post some pics of the cockpit awning we discussed sometime ago on a new thread....

back to the original topic...

Alan
__________________
Nordic cat is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 30-07-2008, 08:50   #43
cruiser
 
BigCat's Avatar

Join Date: May 2007
Location: Everett, Washington
Posts: 765
I don't have anything against roomarans

I once owned the monohull version of a roomaran aka condomaran- a Catalina 42 with 3 private cabins and 2 heads. Each kind of boat has its place. I am not of the opinion that all boats should be fast-'built for comfortnot for speed' as a design goal is perfectly reasonable IMHO.

I'm a pretty lazy sailor, and have never used a spinnaker on any of my boats. My BigCat 65 is going to sail under working sails only, as well-so it is going to have a large working rig.
__________________
BigCat is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 30-07-2008, 09:12   #44
Registered User
 
Tnflakbait's Avatar

Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Southern California
Boat: CSK, 33' Aita Pe'ape'a
Posts: 338
Images: 7
Quote:
Originally Posted by freetime View Post
How fast is the fastest you have sailed with your cruisingcatamaran?

Brand, Model, wind, speed?
The top speed we have reached with our 1964 33' csk (Choy, Seaman, Kumalae) was 18.4 kts. Wind was about 25 kts just aft of the beam. We had the full main and 140% genoa flying. This is pretty much scary fast. 15's and 16's are done on a somewhat regular basis (still really fast)
In most conditions 10 kts of boat speed is pretty comfortable, however if you are going upwind in large seas it's no good. While the boat is capable of 10 kts upwind it is very uncomfortable and somewhat risky. The boats heel is at about 15 degrees and the boat launches dramatically off of every swell. 6 kts is what I prefer to sail at upwind when in bad conditions.
In winds under 10 kts I find the boat is no faster than most Monohulls of similar size, it is also much less manuverable. The higher winds are when the boat comes into it's own.

The fact is my CSK is faster than many new cruising cats. I think this is because of a change of focus on what people want in a cruising cat. After all my 1964 CSK has very narrow hulls, and weighs in at about 2.5 tons. It has a very small load capacity as well. I'm sure in perfectly flat conditions with plenty of wind we could pass the 20 kt barrier, but I have no plans to do so, after all we are cruising!

BTW... If I were in the market for a new cruising cat, Outremer would be at the top of the list!


This is a video showing how comfortable 9-10 kts is in about 12 kts true:

__________________
Tnflakbait is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 30-07-2008, 09:48   #45
Eternal Member
 
imagine2frolic's Avatar

Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Las Brisas Panama AGAIN!
Boat: Simpson, Catamaran, 46ft. IMAGINE
Posts: 4,508
Images: 123
Tnflakbait,

and she is one of the lovliest cats on this forum!
__________________

__________________
imagine2frolic is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
cruising

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Quantum Fusion M Sails for Fast Cruising Cat Agility Deck hardware: Rigging, Sails & Hoisting 6 05-12-2011 20:18
Fast Cruising Catamaran freetime Multihull Sailboats 52 25-10-2011 08:11
7.5 - 8.5 Meter Fast Coastal Catamarans freetime Multihull Sailboats 3 28-06-2010 10:55
affordable fast cruising cat tallboy Multihull Sailboats 11 02-12-2008 14:40
Offshore Sailing School Fast Track to Cruising course Gunnar Schrade Cruising News & Events 2 27-08-2008 07:34



Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -7. The time now is 16:40.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.