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Old 07-08-2008, 05:09   #166
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Hello Gideon,

I appreciate how much work and money is needed to make the boat lighter and we all realise that lighter boat (all other parameters being the same) is faster. If you forgive my ignorance, the question is; the people who are aiming at lighter boat, hence, faster and expensive boat is yr target customer. I am also assuming that someone who pays a Mio USD for a boat, will need some extra, maybe even more than someone who cannot afford this type of boat.
When then they start filling up with extra's of every kind, don't you feel that all yr good work is being wiped off and the potentially "fastcat" turns out to an ordinary boat, eg. lightly loaded average speed multi's ?
Logically (I may be wrong), I tend to believe that the drop of performance in a lighter boat would much more significant than it would be for a medium /high weight cat.
(2 tons extra on 5 ton light displacement is 40% whereas on 10 tons LD is only 20 %)
Isn't it why the load carrying capacity of monohulls are higher than multi's ? And isn't it why , multi's are more sensitive to weight ? (they are much lighter than mono's of similar size, as they don't have heavy keel underneath..)

Cheers

yeloya
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Old 07-08-2008, 05:17   #167
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Talbot
We built it in our factory and it is a new design . the length is 3.30 meters and a width of 1.80 meters , basalt fiber bottom infused with ( Swedish ) Divinycell foam and epoxy.
The front of the hull has a V bottom and the rear shapes into a catamaran type hull shape.
It can take 6 people and with a total load of 200 kilo it planes well with a 6 Hp outboard motor.

The advantage in using a lightweight rib and outboard , total 48 kilo is that the davits can also be less in weight

On the price list you will still see 26 kilo but the actual weight is now 23.5 kilo for the 3.30 version.
(without Oars and seat)

Greetings
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Old 07-08-2008, 05:37   #168
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yeloya View Post
Hello Gideon,

I appreciate how much work and money is needed to make the boat lighter and we all realise that lighter boat (all other parameters being the same) is faster. If you forgive my ignorance, the question is; the people who are aiming at lighter boat, hence, faster and expensive boat is yr target customer. I am also assuming that someone who pays a Mio USD for a boat, will need some extra, maybe even more than someone who cannot afford this type of boat.
When then they start filling up with extra's of every kind, don't you feel that all yr good work is being wiped off and the potentially "fastcat" turns out to an ordinary boat, eg. lightly loaded average speed multi's ?
Logically (I may be wrong), I tend to believe that the drop of performance in a lighter boat would much more significant than it would be for a medium /high weight cat.
(2 tons extra on 5 ton light displacement is 40% whereas on 10 tons LD is only 20 %)
Isn't it why the load carrying capacity of monohulls are higher than multi's ? And isn't it why , multi's are more sensitive to weight ? (they are much lighter than mono's of similar size, as they don't have heavy keel underneath..)

Cheers

yeloya
Hallo Yeloya

You are right off course 2 tons on 5 tons is 40 % however we also recommend a normal sail away weight and that is 7255 kilo , this leaves the possibility for customers to put in 2000 kilo,s of extra,s and come to the normal recommended cruising of 7255 kilo.
We build our cats only for private use and actually most of our customers will live on the boat and will do world cruises .
If this is done with the normal type or weight cruising cat lets say a boat to compare
The Orana 44 , a nice and spacious boat with an empty weight of 10000 kilo, now ad the 2000 kilo of extra,s and now make the boat ready for world cruises and ad another 2000 kilo and you end up with a extremely slow boat that will give you very nice and extremely long cruises.
It is a choice to make and I can only decide for my self.
I started building this boat because I could not find the right boat for myself and I had looked at almost every production cat made in the world 6 years ago.
To heavy and thus to slow when loaded up for long cruises.
The advantage will always be there if the boats are loaded up the same way.
We do however supply our customers with a lightweight ocean crossing package
that consist of about every thing one could need if they want excluding personal goods.
That means full kitchen equipment , water maker, full bedroom linen , towels RIB Outboard , life raft,Binoculars Radar, GPS chart plotter, The total list contains more than 500 items .
The weight of this total package is 320 kilo
What is not provided are personal goods .

If a person gets a FastCat 455 and keeps it empty he will get an extreme fast cruising catamaran

I have attached 2 Polars , one in its extreme light condition and the other in the normal weight of 7255 plus a few people on board with water and diesel and all the extra,s one would normally want.
Greetings
Gideon
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Old 08-09-2008, 21:39   #169
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Back to the original question

If I remember it correctly.

I've been on a Crowther Offshore 40 tube cat and done 17 knots close reaching in about 12 knots of wind.

I've been on a F-27 tri and done 17 knots on a surf going downwind at night with a chute. (a little scary considering there were unlit nuns about!)

I've done 13 knots reaching in about 10 knots of wind on my macgregor 36 cat.

All of these sacrificed space and comfort for speed. Remember Newick's ditty:

Given the desired characteristics of speed, comfort, and cheap price, you can only achieve two of the three in any one boat.

If you choose speed and comfort, you will have a large expensive boat with the finest materials.

If you choose speed and cheap price, you get a stripped out lightweight flyer that is uncomfortable.

If you choose cheap price and comfort, you get a slow roomeran.

(Grossly paraphrased)
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Old 16-02-2011, 12:27   #170
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Fast sailing

It does all come down to weight and design. I have a Conser 47 in full cruising mode so we are way over design weight (5,000lbs). It is still a very fast cat. We have sailed multiple times in the mid 20's and done 350+ mile days. We have surfed for 36 hrs non stop up and down wave faces.

Two experiences stand out. We were sailing on a beam reach with 90% self tacking jib and full main while eating dinner with glasses of wine on the cockpit table. Average speed under auto pilot was 14-15 knots with peak speeds of 19+. Another time we were sailing south around Cape Fear against the current in 30+ knots of wind behind us with just the self tacking 90% jib up no main. We tried to stay straight downwind to reduce the apparent. Occasionally a wave would turn the stern slightly. The apparent wind would pull forward and the boat would take off. We hit 23+ knots several times. At speeds like that it is a sleigh ride with the boat skipping on the wave tops. We have never buried a bow. We do go through a top of an occasional wave though. All speeds are GPS.

We talk about top speeds but the real issue is miles made good on a long passage with upwind/downwind sailing. In these cases we average 200km made good per 24 hrs. This has been the case on multiple voyages over apox. 20,000km. In downwind trade conditions the number would be much higher. The sea state is the real limiting factor.

As is always the case if we were lighter the speeds and distances would be higher and the ride more comfortable. In proper weight a Conser 47 is a 30+ knot boat as seen in the Paragon boats of Maui (day charter 31.3/31.1knots) and the Conser 47 in Newport Ca. (cruising setup 31.1knots).

If you have a well designed cat you can sail when others motor in light winds. Our best was 5 knots of wind built to 10 knots apparent with GPS speed of 9 knots at 50-60 degrees apparent wind using full main and code 0. Building the apparent wind is the key.

With a fast boat you can sail safer avoiding bad weather and not having to push the boat and rig as hard.
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Old 16-02-2011, 12:34   #171
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The fastest cruising cats that I know of are Chris White's "Atlantic" series. They are barely cruising boats, but they couldn't be called racers either. Among the cruisers, they may be the speed demons! (We're talking double digits on ANY good day!)

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Old 16-02-2011, 13:06   #172
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I'm not sure I completely agree with Newick's "golden rule"

We live aboard our boat full time. We have all the usual stuff, fridge, freezer, washing machine, flatscreen TV, DVD, watermaker, 600 Watts solar, portable genny, the most INCREDIBLY heavy queen size latex matress.... it's a comfortable floating home.

We can sail to within a knot of windspeed when it's blowing between 5 to around 12 knots, have seen a max of 18 knots so far (NOT surfing) can sail at better than 30 degrees apparent (best under autopilot was 9.5 knots at 26 degrees).

Double digits is pretty routine.

Not a racer by any means, but pretty fast cruiser IMO.

And built for less than $200k Au.
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Old 17-02-2011, 05:57   #173
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Hey - we're back on topic lol!

My experience in my Chris White Atlantic 46 Mk II (which is American for 48ft!):

- top speed so far 22.4 kn
- times over 20 kn = at least 6 times
- 16-18 kn is "hull speed"; need to surf or lift a hull (which we do when racing - skimming the water) to get over that
- reaching with full main, jib and staysail in 25 kn while racing - sustained 18-22 kn for over an hour in flat water; passed lots of million dollar monos
- all this was under original rig which was underpowered (Chris's more recent designs are not underpowered); new rig has 20% more main, 15% more jib, big screecher etc; we expect 24/25 kn, but all we've had is light winds
- for cruising, average speed is more important; Melbourne to Beauty Point (Tasmania), 285 nm across Bass Strait, we averaged 12 kn in a range of wind speeds from 10 kn to 25 kn and no motoring.

My previous boat was a Seawind 1000. Top speed 18.7 (surfing down a 6 m wave in Storm Bay, Tasmania - they are a very seaworthy little boat!). Maintaibale top speed = 15-16 kn in perfect conditions.

Btw, Aussie cruising cats are all generally quite fast cf most overseas designs.
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Old 17-02-2011, 09:04   #174
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[QUOTE=RunawayC47;620876]-------
If you have a well designed cat you can sail when others motor in light winds.

I´m completely agree with RunawayC47. If we look for fast cat we´ll should look how she sailing with slow wind.
I had experience sailing Outremer 49 from Le Grand Motte to Palma de Mallorca (more 200 nm).
I was very surprised: with 4,4kn of wind true we sailed 5,31 kn!
The top speed was 22, 5 kn.

And she is sufficiently comfortable. She´s very good cat.
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Old 17-02-2011, 09:34   #175
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What a bunch of braggers

Palarran is pretty slow. I generally get half the wind speed less one knot. If there isn't at least 12 knts blowing, we don't bother to sail. The fastest the boat has gone was 14 knots so far. It probably won't go much faster without surfing.

But, the boat is very heavy. My equipment list is pretty much complete and probably not compareable to many boats even of the same lenght. I'll probably put feathering props on in the hopes of gaining some speed but otherwise, it is what it is. And - I like it that way.
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Old 17-02-2011, 09:36   #176
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I should point out that the best trolling speed for fishing is between 6 and 8 knots. I like fishing.
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Old 17-02-2011, 09:41   #177
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Another number for right now - my captain is sailing an 82' carbon fiber high end catamaran from St. Martin to Nice RIGHT now. They did 1500 miles in the first week with a top 24 hour distance of 285 miles. They are 1800 miles from Gibralter and should make the crossing in 2.5 weeks. That's hauling ass in my book.
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Old 17-02-2011, 10:55   #178
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Quote:
Originally Posted by freetime View Post
How fast is the fastest you have sailed with your cruisingcatamaran?

Brand, Model, wind, speed?
Interesting discussion, including the detours

Just for calibration . . . We have done 16.9kts (gps set to 12 second averaging), with a 40' waterline mono in 40kts of wind with only the storm jib set .
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Old 17-02-2011, 13:44   #179
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Surfing?
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Old 17-02-2011, 13:57   #180
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If not 'surfing' per se, I suspect aided along by a following sea?

Brad
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