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Old 21-08-2015, 01:58   #46
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Re: Fast, Comfortable and Cheap.

Since she came back to my local waters, I've sailed by Fantasia several times and she has been anchored outside Manly Harbour from time to time. She is a fine looking boat, with a great turn of speed and has a crew renowned for their great experience and skill. They have made life choices that most of us don't or won't in pursuing that particular dream. She sailed past me during the Brisbane to Gladstone (I was making a nuisance of myself as a spectator) doing at least 2-3 kts faster than me in 15 kts of breeze. She looks slightly angular in the fairing (to my eye) but a nice finish and is very well presented.

On topic I would nevertheless say:
1. Boats of this ilk new and built by quality builders are not cheap. Let's take a Craig Schoening design Spirited 38 as an example. It will set you back more than $A550K without the carbon rig or anything but the base boat. Second hand they will still be a similar price due to young age and the addition of added kit. A new G Force 1500 will set you back well in excess of $A1.3+M.
2. Sure, you can build it yourself and save hundreds of thousands of dollars. But you need skills that most don't have, not to mention several thousand spare hours. And, you risk losing a wife, your family or your dream and drive in the process. Exceptional people do this well, often those "on mission" so to speak.
3. What about a used boat? So in the second hand market an ageing but "good" Jeff Schoening Waterline or Cosmos 13-14m boat might still be considerably more than what I paid for my L440, unless it's a dog or badly built. I certainly tracked a lot of them before I settled on mine.
4. Owner built boats are a risky proposition as you have to be an expert to decide if it is in spec. And well founded. I know of at least one Cosmos that was bought "for a song" but after 9 months of expensive refitting inclusive of very substantial structural work, I'm sure the buyer wished the song had fewer verses! Further you need to know it was built to the precise plans provided by the designer. Again I know of a particular Schoening built with an additional metre of beam that slams where it might not have if as per spec. A well known G1500 I see regularly that races locally had to have added stern length added owing to being over weight in the build process.
5. So it is not all beer and skittles! For the part timer, the unskilled, the average punter, the non purist, the simpleton like me, the option of a known tried and true, formula and predictable if not mundane and sedate production boat still has its advantages. More so when it comes to resale where the market is plush with the more ignorant like me seeking a "known" product, rather than the one off, albeit potentially spectacular alternative that might be a hidden gem needing the skilled eye, to find.

N.B. I love them all. I wish I has C44s time and lifestyle. Very jealous.
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Old 21-08-2015, 05:15   #47
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Re: Fast, Comfortable and Cheap.

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Originally Posted by 44'cruisingcat View Post
I'd suggest you don't understand the meaning of the phrase "In my opinion.".


It amazes me that people can criticize a boat's comfort, without ever having been on it. But that's the norm for this forum I guess.
That's like saying a yugo is a sports car in your opinion becuase it's faster than a model t.

No one criticized the boat's comfort. The point still stands, they got a relatively fast boat, relatively cheaply by sacraficing on the comfort/luxury relative to similar size boats.

Give it up, you don't understand the design principal.
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Old 21-08-2015, 05:25   #48
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Re: Fast, Comfortable and Cheap.

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Originally Posted by dazbys View Post
The displacement of "cruisers" with the same lwl can vary a lot, and hence their performance. Compare an Outremer 5X to a Lagoon 520. Both cruisers (by some definition). One weights 10000kg less than the other (in round figures)

One of the side effects of low cost (relatively) tends to be less stuff, which means less weight. No A/C, basic facilities etc all weigh less than having everything that opens and shuts.

This lack of stuff allows your cheap yacht to go faster than the expensive one with all the stuff, and it's cheaper because they didn't need to go high tech and high cost to stay light.

No, this particular topic has been done to death on this very forum if you want to cheek.

From race/rally results such as the ARC waterline length is the predominant precursor for passage speeds.

Lots of data out there now.
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Old 21-08-2015, 05:45   #49
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Re: Fast, Comfortable and Cheap.

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Seriously do you just make stuff up. It astounds me who many haters there are out there on every issue. Andrew and his family have lived aboard full time for years, I think that makes it a cruising boat irrespective of your tool inventory, though I am sure you are well qualified there.

Hammo Elapsed times - Race 1 she was 3 mins behind MOJO and Chill Pill and a long way in front of Renaissance. Race 2 a long way in front of Renaissance again, and let me assure you that Hodgo takes his racing seriously as well. Long way in front of Farrier RX and the super light Cut Snake Race 3 - same story in fact finished within 3 seconds of Chill Pill and well in front of Mojo, Renaissance the Farrier, Cut snake etc.

Yes it isn't the fastest boat out there but it isn't a mid fleet fleet handicap sandbagger either.

I don't think so, the Catanas up there doing the cruise series are similar sizes and significantly - I mean significantly - slower and yes I am aware of the the different rules for each group, then again a Seawind 1160 is comprehensively flogging them as well, so I suppose that means its very easy to do?
A quick check reveals the following:

Hamo island Race 1 fantasia finished 6th over line out of 13.
hamo island Race 2 fantasia finished 7th over line out of 13.
hamo island race 3 fantasia finished 5 th over line out of 13.

Pretty close to finishing mid fleet.
In the interests of a productive discussion you may want to re read what I actually posted .
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Old 21-08-2015, 06:24   #50
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Re: Fast, Comfortable and Cheap.

I can't help but read this thread and think of my own situation;
Filthy, stinking, rich.


Two out of three ain't bad.

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Old 21-08-2015, 09:20   #51
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Re: Fast, Comfortable and Cheap.

A couple of questions...who is the designer? And Daz, I'd think the outremer 5x would be a similar price to the L520 wouldn't it? Both pretty close to a $mill ?
As far as comfort goes, it looks like it has the space to be very comfortable. Sure the bench seats and cockpit won't win any home beautiful awards, but a bit more time in construction without any additional weight or cost could easily change that. Maybe the owner had great ideas of a cheap fit out in Thailand after launch and decided the original works well enough for their purposes. The Facebook page has quite a few pics of the boat and it looks like strip foam core construction?
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Old 21-08-2015, 15:34   #52
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Re: Fast, Comfortable and Cheap.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Seaslug Caravan View Post
A quick check reveals the following:

Hamo island Race 1 fantasia finished 6th over line out of 13.
hamo island Race 2 fantasia finished 7th over line out of 13.
hamo island race 3 fantasia finished 5 th over line out of 13.

Pretty close to finishing mid fleet.
In the interests of a productive discussion you may want to re read what I actually posted .
A full-time liveaboard cruising cat finishing in the middle of the RACING multihull fleet. How many of the other boats in that race are lived aboard full time?
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Old 21-08-2015, 16:13   #53
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Re: Fast, Comfortable and Cheap.

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Originally Posted by valhalla360 View Post
That's like saying a yugo is a sports car in your opinion becuase it's faster than a model t.

No one criticized the boat's comfort. The point still stands, they got a relatively fast boat, relatively cheaply by sacraficing on the comfort/luxury relative to similar size boats.

Give it up, you don't understand the design principal.
Ah, you're not criticizing the comfort, just saying that it's been sacrificed....

I understand the principal quite well. It's a fast boat, it's a comfortable boat, and it was comparatively very cheap.
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Old 21-08-2015, 16:35   #54
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Re: Fast, Comfortable and Cheap.

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Originally Posted by 44'cruisingcat View Post
A full-time liveaboard cruising cat finishing in the middle of the RACING multihull fleet. How many of the other boats in that race are lived aboard full time?


44'cruising cat you may find that the boats that Fantasia beats regularly over the line ,i.e. the slower boats are in general smaller cruising boats such as pescotts and farriers etc . Boats with shorter waterlines that struggle more in a seaway. Of course theres always exceptions and you may find that these fall into the poorly/conservatively sailed, or poorly equipped class.
I repeat, Andrew is a good competitive skipper, and as you well know there is more to winning races than having the fastest boat.

Having one of the longest boats that is treated well under OMR and sailed well goes a long way to figuring highly in the result sheets.
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Old 21-08-2015, 17:59   #55
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Re: Fast, Comfortable and Cheap.

For a 34' boat my cat is very comfortable

Cost about 40K equipped for full time coastal cruising.

Faster than any cat under 46' in Bahamas racing excepting a Custom Crowther 42

Does 16++ knots with the kids playing games at the saloon table.
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Old 21-08-2015, 18:22   #56
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Re: Fast, Comfortable and Cheap.

[QUOTE=Boatguy30;1896818]For a 34' boat my cat is very comfortable

Cost about 40K equipped for full time coastal cruising.

Faster than any cat under 46' in Bahamas racing excepting a Custom Crowther 42

Does 16++ knots with the kids playing games at the saloon table.[/QUOTE

Cost 40K ? And how much would you sell her for?
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Old 21-08-2015, 19:05   #57
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Re: Fast, Comfortable and Cheap.

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For a 34' boat my cat is very comfortable

Cost about 40K equipped for full time coastal cruising.

Faster than any cat under 46' in Bahamas racing excepting a Custom Crowther 42

Does 16++ knots with the kids playing games at the saloon table.
Sounds like your boat does the fast, comfortable and cheap thing pretty well too.
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Old 21-08-2015, 20:11   #58
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Re: Fast, Comfortable and Cheap.

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Originally Posted by Serapium View Post
I recently purchased a 46' trimaran with five staterooms, two full heads, a roomy salon and galley, and a very comfortable enclosed 23'x8' pilot house for $43,000. By the time my family of 6 is comfortably sailing the Caribbean I expect to have something akin to $60,000 invested after attending to the necessaries.
Sorry to keep harping on this, but the only trimarans on Yachtworld even remotely close to those specifications are in the half a million dollar range. Now I know that Yachtworld isn't necessarily the place to go to for a bargain, but I still wonder whether/how the above was possible. Half a mill is way out of my budget range, but at 50k I can start dreaming/planning for my next venture...
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Old 21-08-2015, 20:27   #59
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Re: Fast, Comfortable and Cheap.

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Sorry to keep harping on this, but the only trimarans on Yachtworld even remotely close to those specifications are in the half a million dollar range. Now I know that Yachtworld isn't necessarily the place to go to for a bargain, but I still wonder whether/how the above was possible. Half a mill is way out of my budget range, but at 50k I can start dreaming/planning for my next venture...

http://www.sailboatlistings.com/view/52609


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Old 21-08-2015, 21:29   #60
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Re: Fast, Comfortable and Cheap.

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Originally Posted by Seaslug Caravan View Post
A quick check reveals the following:

Hamo island Race 1 fantasia finished 6th over line out of 13.
hamo island Race 2 fantasia finished 7th over line out of 13.
hamo island race 3 fantasia finished 5 th over line out of 13.

Pretty close to finishing mid fleet.
In the interests of a productive discussion you may want to re read what I actually posted .

In all fairness actually checking those results show that Fantasia was beaten by a few full on racing boats. Not the sort of boats most would take the family out in for anything other than a night. The other two boats in front were Schionning G forces that cost multiples of Andrew's build cost. And they were only just in front. Even allowing for labour his boat would be substantially cheaper.

To say he is only fast relative to forty footers such as Pescott's is equally misleading. Faster than boats that will leave most similar size boats behind is not an indictment.

Fantasia does not lack comfort. Luxury is another matter. They are living an awesome lifestyle made possible by Andrew's drive and determination. Awesome boat.
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