Farrier, Schionning, Crowther

[Epicurean]

We are interested in buying a used, performance catamaran in the low-to-mid 40+' range with daggerboards. Not having a lot of experience sailing cats I don't know how to effectively compare what I see available. Currently there is at least one of each of the following: Crowther 220, Farrier F-41, Schonning Wilderness 1320 and Cosmo 1320. I realize a lot depends on loading. We want a liveaboard, ocean-crossing boat. Does anyone have insight/experience into how these compare as regards sailing ability and payload capacity?


Thanks.

[BigBeakie]

I think Factor, one of our fellow CF members, would have a pretty good handle on your request for info on these designs. He is very knowledgeable on Aussie designs.

IMO, get the most length for bluewater cruising you can afford, pay attention to the sail area/ displacement data for each, and then it comes down to details: how they were built & materials, experience of builder, deck layout & sail handling, equipment inventory, etc.

Given that finding adequate haul-out facilities around the world for cats can be an issue, I'm a big fan of hulls with daggerboards AND mini-keels, so you can dry out on sand bars and do whatever you need to do (maintenance wise) under the waterline. Can come in real handy, protects the props & rudders, and has only minimal effect on boatspeed.


Sent from my iPad using Cruisers Sailing Forum

[LeeV]

Balance 451
Catana 42 - 45
....some of this will depend on where you want to buy; 220v outside the U.S. Europe will have different boats than the US or Australia.

Do you want balsa core? Foam?

Take your time to think it through; lots of choices. Good luck.

[Epicurean]

Thanks.

I realize that each of these boats is a one-off and the quality varies. For that I need a good surveyor to guide me. But who has the experience/knowledge to say “Boat X was able to handle a cruising load and still perform well,” or “Boat Y sailed faster than Boat X until I put my wife, two kids, cruising spares, food, fuel, etc. on it and then I realized I needed a different boat?” For that I need an experienced sailor.

I think a larger sail area may help with light airs but once you have to reef, and earlier with a large sail area, it's not an advantage.

That's an interesting point about haul out facilities. I know many yards have these Sea Lifts/ hydraulic trailers but I'm sure beam is an issue for yards with Travelifts. Beam is good for stability. All these boats have about 24' of beam.
Where the boat is located isn't really an issue. I.ve lived half my life with 110V AC, half my life with 220V AC and half my life with DC. It's not difficult at all to switch. But if you experience a 220V shock you'll know the difference!

I like the Balance 451 but it's $600K new and there are no used ones on the market. I also can't afford a Gunboat – new or used. I don't like the Outremer interiors and Catanas seem too heavy although, perhaps, they can handle more of a payload. By the way, Balance 451 lists 1.5K kg payload. A similar length Schionning lists 2K kg. Who knows how accurate those are?

[LeeV]

Well, cruising load is relative. What we loaded on our offshore trimaran 20 years ago or even 3 yrs ago on the newer tri was a fraction of what I’m guessing we’ll put on the cat we’re currently looking for.

Likewise 220V. If you’re buying 220 and bringing it to the US, changing it over isn’t the end of the world unless it has a/c, genny, etc..., and you want to add on or replace one of those items. My home is in Europe so I can deal with either; it’s when you need to merge that it becomes a PIA.

Catana/Balance - just two more with boards for the list; we don’t want either, nor an Outremer, even if we could armored them.

I have friends with FP Lucia’s and Helias, and Leopard 40, 44 and 46s with kids and they all love their boats.

You’ll just need to get out, get on them with your family, figure out what they can handle, and you’ll know when it’s the right boat.

[cwjohm]

Hi

I have been looking at this for a number of years now. The physics of the triangle of comfort, cost, and speed are immutable.

The first question to be asked is what comfort you, or usually your wife and kids, require in a boat. The problem is that the production boat builders have nailed the comfort angle, and attend any boatshow or pull up in an anchorage next to one and the wife and family get an instant display of how much comfort they could have in a catamaran. The fact that you say that you do not like the Outremer interiors indicates to me that you really want production boat comfort in a fast boat.

The boats you reference will all perform much the same but have very limited load carrying capacity. Forget generators, a/c, washing machine, significant refrigeration, heavy internal finishing etc etc - all of the aspects that make a boat comfortable and livable.

Others will disagree but my experience that if you want comfort and performance you need to be looking at least 50' but closer to 60' and the dollars will mount. The best example I have seen is the Balance 526 and that runs U$1.6m or so. So the cost aspect rears its ugly head.

If you want to pursue a faster boat at a lower cost IMO catana is your best bet, but they are built heavy for a reason, as in order to get speed they carry a lot of sail area. You also have to be happy with the external helms. Again if you are not happy with Outremer comfort then you probably would not be happy with older Catana comfort, even though you have the load carrying capacity.

You also have to ask yourself exactly why you want a performance boat when you are cruising with a family. This is precious cargo and invariably you will want to slow the boat down for safety reasons and you may find that although the boat is capable of more speed the times when you use that potential are very limited. On a longer passage you might save a day. Is that worth missing out on the living conditions 99% of the time.

I know a lot of people with fast cruising boats less than 50" and in most cases when they want to really push the boat they get experienced crew and the wife and kids get off. When the wife and kids return back to cruising mode and sailing at similar speeds to production boats. Larger faster boats like the 5X are a different story where you can sail fast in comfort but be prepared to spend over U$1m even used.

Lastly, do not listen to brokers and the tall tales they tell. The best question to ask of the owners of these boats is the average daily miles done on passage. Ask them for log entries. You will invariably find that the reality does not match with the perceived performance and the advantage you will gain by having a boat such as this compared to the sacrifices you make is not a good equation for your wife and kids.

[mark_morwood]

Performance also can mean many different things.

For me cruising, it has become less about high end speed, and much more about being able to maintain a good average speed in reasonable conditions (say 8 knots boat speed) and a good minimum speed as it gets lighter (say 5 knots boat speed in 6 or 7 knots of wind). As long as the boat is reasonably easy to drive, both can be achieved by having a good range of sails and being prepared to put in the effort to use them. We achieved that with a significant cruising load on our Catana 48 by having a set of light wind sails and using them.

With a lighter boat, like some of the more custom ones the OP mentions, that should be possible with fewer changes of sails and less effort, but also probably with less carrying capacity, though I do not know the actual numbers for any of those boats.

My point is the weight of boat is important to performance, but so is the suite of sails used. To a certain extent you can add performance to a heavier boat by adding sails, but the work and loads go up.

[200MPH]

Don't know if you've been on a Schionning before, but they're tight inside. I was looking at a Cosmos a couple of years back and it was a bit of a limbo effort needed to get down from the saloon into the hulls. That kind of stuff would get old pretty quickly I think...


This is in comparison to a Seawind 1160 or Fusion 40 by way of reference. They're not as performance for sure when it comes to speed but they are a nice balance when you're living aboard I feel. As for sailing speed, well we hit 9 knots in our Seawind the other day at about 100-110 AWA in about 25 knots true wind, double reefed main and self tacking jib. So something like a Seawind is not fast in comparison for sure. But less compromised for living.

[Dave_S]

I can't answer your question about comparisons but you mention loading and I can talk to some extent about how a Schionning boat sails with a relatively high payload.

I kinda think of my boat as 38' living space on a 48' frame..... its better than that but that gives the idea.

I get that a performance cruiser is not for everyone - to each their own, but I'm definitely in favour and I don't agree with some of the loading talk.

My boat is specified to be 5,060kgs "light weight" and 7,060kgs displacement.

I sail it around 7,000kgs and have sailed it at 7,500kgs and it makes a difference but nothing like the changes sometimes suggested. It still sails much like it did when 500kgs lighter. I believe it would still sail like a performance cruiser with 3,000kgs or more. The change would be that the draft would increase from 480mm to 510mm for another 500kgs, significant but no where near mid range or luxury boats.

Don't get me wrong, it makes a difference and I work at trying to make mine lighter but some will have you believe your better off with a standard performance boat if you want to load it up. I'm sure there is a weight point where this is true but I think the tipping point is at a much heavier loading.

[catsketcher]

Originally Posted by cwjohm

Hi

The boats you reference will all perform much the same but have very limited load carrying capacity. Forget generators, a/c, washing machine, significant refrigeration, heavy internal finishing etc etc - all of the aspects that make a boat comfortable and livable.

Others will disagree but my experience that if you want comfort and performance you need to be looking at least 50' but closer to 60' and the dollars will mount. The best example I have seen is the Balance 526 and that runs U$1.6m or so. So the cost aspect rears its ugly head.

On a longer passage you might save a day. Is that worth missing out on the living conditions 99% of the time.

I couldn't disagree more strongly.

Today's custom Schionning is light years ahead of anything we had to live in in the 80s or 90s. Back then whole families were cruising on Searunner 31s or 35ft Pivers. Even a Schionning is massive compared to a caravan or 5th wheeler you could use to travel around with instead. My wife and kids were very happy cruising around on a simply fitted 38ft cat. We had plenty of water, 3 months of food, lots of toys and a positive attitude. It was the surroundings that made the cruise, not the plush interior. All up weight, just a tad over 4000kg.

Performance cruising is not just about rattling downwind - you can always push a heavy cat faster in the trades and we usually are throttled back. Where I disagree with some comments is that assumption that a performance cat will go just a bit faster - no sometimes it will go many multiples faster.

We sailed back from Lizard Island into a 20 knot east sou easter. We were the only cat sailing south. The people who left with us had to motor because their boats could not sail to windward well enough to make it to the Low Isles before dark. We had a great sail, hard on the wind in the chop behind the reef - you couldn't have sailed that leg without nice daggers or a nice low windage boat - you would have to motor.

And there have been multiple times when we have been the only cat sailing. Reacher up, apparent wind on the beam, no sea or swell and us trucking along at close to 7 knots in 7 knots breeze whilst all the rest are making smoke - all day whilst we glide along.

Then there is the cost of weight - it is expensive. I couldn't afford to run a heavy cat. Re-rigging or new sails, new winches, even just shackles. If you can get the weight down, the loads drop dramatically. My mast (back in 2000) cost $6000. My friend who had a heavier 40 footer with a slightly taller rig forked out $16 000. The whole thing was an order of magnitude more expensive - I couldn't afford to run a heavy cat.

The interior needs to suit the owners. We jump in the water, go kayaking, put the boat on the sand, push her up the creeks, go sailboarding, let the kids take her away with uni friends so a plush interior goes against using the boat in the way we like. I love our simple, light and fast boat and would have it no other way. She is comfy, easy to sail and has never caused us a moments worry. If you need the wood panelling go for it, but if you love sailing, the Schionnings, Farrier, Graingers and Chamberlins etc are great boats.

cheers

Phil

[catsketcher]

In answer to the questions as to suitability - all of these cats are well proven ocean girdlers. Just be a little careful in that there is one cat being sold as a Crowther 220 that was not drawn by Lock - it might have the same hulls but a different cabin. Degeullo is a great boat and supremely capable.

What I like about these boats is that they can do interesting passages. Endless Summer - F41 - sailed EAST across the Pacific. Great boat with a fab fit out and proven ability to sail to windward with a cruising payload.


https://www.sailblogs.com/member/endlesssummer

The Wilderness series will be faster but have less payload than the Cosmos line. It will depend on you and your needs. One thing to think about is that the Wilderness boats may slam on the flat undersides when going to windward in a big chop. A friends Wilderness 1320 is fast and fun but he did think about putting a bit of a vee onto the bows to stop it slapping, maybe the Cosmos would be quieter. These Milksis would be good to talk to about their boat as they did a nice circ on their Wilderness.

https://issuu.com/latitude38/docs/l38201308/116


Or ask Dave - is this a thing?

A guy called Hans is sailing back to Oz on his 40ft Wilderness after circumnavigating through the Straits of Magellan.

The Deguello design is a real classic. It would be an awesome and safe boat, suitable for any passage. Lock designed this boat for himself and he was a serious sailor. It might be a little light on the payload department as Lock didn't need a lot to cruise. Check the bum is out of the water when unloaded.

As for comparisons - maybe the F41 and the Cosmos are slightly slower and the Wilderness and Crowther will be slightly faster. There will not be too much in it. Have a look at what is fitted into each type and look carefully at the sterns - they should be out of the water when unloaded. All have been well proven by serious voyages and could be great for you if you suit the style of sailing they will provide.


Remember to be sceptical about being sold more size all the time. Of the circumnavigators I know three were on 25ft Top hats, 2 were on a simple 34ft cat, one was on a home built 42ft semi performance cat with boards and two were on a 43 ft pencil thin mono. You don't need massive boats to have a great time sailing. 35-44 ft is a great size

[44'cruisingcat]

Originally Posted by cwjohm

Hi



The boats you reference will all perform much the same but have very limited load carrying capacity. Forget generators, a/c, washing machine, significant refrigeration, heavy internal finishing etc etc - all of the aspects that make a boat comfortable and livable.

.

Apart from airconditioning, and maybe "heavy internal finishing" (whatever that is) we have all these "comforts". I guess our boat is livable even without aircon since we've been living aboard without it for 8 1/2 years.

A sister ship of ours (Oram 44C which is similar in concept and construction to a Wilderness) recently completed a circumnavigation, they seem to have survived, even enjoyed themselves, without aircon... apparently lots of people survive circumnavigations without aircon. Amazing!

Im not exactly sure what "heavy internal finishing" is or what benefit it brings, but they seem to have survived without that too. (I think)

[cwjohm]

On cruisers forum it seems inevitable that every time someone asks for feedback on a boat stating that their family requires the comforts of life this provokes the standard response from the tiny minority who are happy to live without those comforts, and who have lived on their boat for hundreds of years and circumnavigated five times blah blah.

A visit to any boat show (I was at Annapolis last month) and analysis of boat sales clearly indicates that the vast majority of buyers now want a higher level of comfort, most especially driven by the wives.

Of course there is a small minority like several posters here that disagree with this view and all power to them, but the OP specifically said that comfort was a key issue for him, his wife and kids, and that and I quote "the fitout of Outremer was not satisfactory". As such I fail to see how the chest beating of this small minority helps the OP who clearly wants to ensure he does not want to make a mistake in buying a boat in consideration of the requirements of his family.

In regard to air conditioning unquestionably there are a few hardy souls with the physiology to cope with 40C heat and 100% humidity, but that is not the norm. Continuously stating that you are lucky enough to be in that situation, does not help the vast majority of us who are not thus endowed.

[44'cruisingcat]

And yet the majority of circumnavigating boats do without aircon. And in fact, the vast majority of boats we encounter out cruising.

But if you spend most of your time in marinas, I don't doubt aircon would be nice to have.

Where did you find 40 degrees and 100% humidity?

BTW, if you could have been bothered to read a post before replying to it, you'd find I said we HAVE all these comforts apart from AC.

And the "heavy internal finishing ". Maybe. Lead based paint?

[cwjohm]

"The majority of circumnavigating boats do not have aircon" Strong statement with absolutely no evidence to back it up.

Suggest you contact the Lagoon, FP and Leopard distributors in Oz and the US and ask them how many of their boats that sail back to their homes from the factory have aircon. These three manufactures account for the vast majority of catamarans sold in the world.