Farrier, Schionning, Crowther

[44'cruisingcat]

Originally Posted by cwjohm

...the OP specifically said that comfort was a key issue for him, his wife and kids, and that and I quote "the fitout of Outremer was not satisfactory".

Really? Where?

I did see where he said he doesn't like the Outremer interior. But that could simply be the sharp corners. You could certainly have aircon in Outremers, so it couldn't be that...

[44'cruisingcat]

Originally Posted by cwjohm

"The majority of circumnavigating boats do not have aircon" Strong statement with absolutely no evidence to back it up.

Suggest you contact the Lagoon, FP and Leopard distributors in Oz and the US and ask them how many of their boats that sail back to their homes from the factory have aircon. These three manufactures account for the vast majority of catamarans sold in the world.

Do you really think the vast majority of boats circumnavigating are new Lagoons, FPs etc?

As for evidence, haven't seen you supply much.... but we've met quite a few circumnavigators. And NONE, not one, ZERO PERCENT of the ones we've met have airconditioning on their boats.

Of course that doesn't mean no circumnavigating boats have aircon, but it suggests that a fair proportion don't.

[cwjohm]

Mate, I am not taking the bait.

[cwjohm]

Mate,, you and I have been posting here for a long time. Your views are well known and I am not taking the bait.

[44'cruisingcat]

Originally Posted by cwjohm

Mate,, you and I have been posting here for a long time. Your views are well known and I am not taking the bait.

How about answering the questions? For a start, where did you get that "quote"?

You're really not supposed to just make up your own....

[mark_morwood]

Originally Posted by cwjohm

"The majority of circumnavigating boats do not have aircon" Strong statement with absolutely no evidence to back it up.

Though it would be hard to find published data on the number of boats with AC circumnavigating, I will say that there is a lot of personal experience in this group that would likely back up the above statement that the majority do not.

In my case, thinking back to 2014/2015 when we we crossed the Atlantic and Pacific, of the dozen or so boats we knew well, I think 3 had AC. We tended to hang out with the family boats which were generally 40 to 55 ft boats, mostly catamarans, not the smaller lower budget mono-hulls for whom AC was not really an option, so if anything our sample was biased towards those that might have AC. Now, not all of these were circumnavigators, but they were all long distance cruising multiple oceans.

That said, there is no problem with having air conditioning if you want it, I just wouldn't set the expectation that it is necessary for most people, just because it is for some.

[smj]

Originally Posted by cwjohm

On cruisers forum it seems inevitable that every time someone asks for feedback on a boat stating that their family requires the comforts of life this provokes the standard response from the tiny minority who are happy to live without those comforts, and who have lived on their boat for hundreds of years and circumnavigated five times blah blah.

A visit to any boat show (I was at Annapolis last month) and analysis of boat sales clearly indicates that the vast majority of buyers now want a higher level of comfort, most especially driven by the wives.

Of course there is a small minority like several posters here that disagree with this view and all power to them, but the OP specifically said that comfort was a key issue for him, his wife and kids, and that and I quote "the fitout of Outremer was not satisfactory". As such I fail to see how the chest beating of this small minority helps the OP who clearly wants to ensure he does not want to make a mistake in buying a boat in consideration of the requirements of his family.

In regard to air conditioning unquestionably there are a few hardy souls with the physiology to cope with 40C heat and 100% humidity, but that is not the norm. Continuously stating that you are lucky enough to be in that situation, does not help the vast majority of us who are not thus endowed.

The first one to mention the comforts of life was you, I cant find where the op mentioned he or his family are looking for a boat with the comforts of life. Some feel they need all the extras to have the comfort they need, others feel more comfortable with less BS on the boat. All a personal choice.

[catsketcher]

When I go cruising I don't find there is a tiny minority on simpler boats. When you build your own you find even a simple boat has too many systems. I would define my simple cat as very comfortable and my wife is very happy to live on her with me for years at a time. Few of my cruising friends have opulent boats, that may be a reflection on me.

There could be a very good reason for production boats being more opulent today - simple used boat sales. We have lots of very nice and well equipped cats in the 35-45 ft range that have all many people need for cruising. Modern cat design has not progressed hugely in the last 20 years and a 20 year old design can still be a really good boat. This was not the case in the 80s when I got into multis - back then my 1958 Piver Nugget was seriously outclassed by boats that were light years ahead of her when her design was 24 years old (in 1982).

So I traded up, then my Twiggy was shown to be behind the times, so I traded up again to the cat we have now. I am thankful I did not build my cat about 6 years earlier, before transom steps, bigger volume hulls, composite chainplates etc. She is as fast as any similar cat her length with similar comfort levels.

So why trade up? Some of our best Aussie cats - the Seawind 1000, the Lightwave 38 and Schionnings boats are 20-30 year old designs. At no time in the history of multis have you been able to have a 30 year old design (with some small mods) that can seriously hold its own with modern ones.

So there is no less to trade up to new. Buyers have fabulous and well evolved cats of last generation that are as good to sail as the new models. So builders need to differentiate - innovate or die. One way is to make the boats bigger and more comfortable. There are few of these on the market and so you have more of a green field to sell your product into.

There certainly could be market forces that are skewing what cats are being built at the moment. If someone comes up with an amazing new cat, then I predict that we will see people like me do what we have always done and trade up - but cat evolution has slowed down - that is what evolution does - fast changes for a short period then a longer time of slow adaptations.

So for the OP - be proud of thinking about a performance cat. You have lots of good models to choose from as there are lots out there and they have not been superseded by newer marques. But out there cruising is a very different scene from the boat show. Really the boat show market shows that we should all be buying power boats jet skis, monos, tinnies or paddle boards. They are the most common boats at the Sydney boat show, a choice for any type of sailing cat will put you in a small minority. So I am in a small minority after all.

cheers

Phil

[tomfl]

Originally Posted by cwjohm

SNIP

I know a lot of people with fast cruising boats less than 50" and in most cases when they want to really push the boat they get experienced crew and the wife and kids get off. When the wife and kids return back to cruising mode and sailing at similar speeds to production boats. Larger faster boats like the 5X are a different story where you can sail fast in comfort but be prepared to spend over U$1m even used.

SNIP

I have an older Seawind 1000 with stern extensions I am very happy with. I met a guy with a F-39 which is the only boat I considered selling the Seawind to get a new boat. But reality got the better of me. First off an F-39 would be almost impossible to find used and getting one built would cost big bucks.


Thing was the F-39 sailed like a bat out of hell. It was a legit 20kn boat. But as the owner pointed out he wanted a crew of 5 at that speed. I single hand almost exclusively so have a light boat and I consider the Seawind a 2/3 of wind speed boat to around 10-12kns in a 15-20kn wind. All the boats you mentioned, along with several others, are in that same category; 2/3 wind speed (maybe more for some) till you start getting around maybe 15kns boat speed. At that point unless your name is Loïck Peyron, or someone on his level, you will need a very capable crew.


As several other peeps have posted the huge majority of circumnavigators don't have AC; while almost all dock queens have AC. Even the boats that never leave the slip often will have a window shaker blocking the hatch and a blanket to keep the cool air in.


Not trying to talk you out of a performance boat but I have no doubt any of the current Route du Rhum skippers could trade boats with me and they would win any match race. The point being unless you have the skill set to sail a performance boat at 15kns it really does not matter how fast the boat can sail.


Kinda the same thing for AC. In a cat you may need ducts to get air to both hulls and the salon. And need a genset to run the AC. And gas to run the genset. And noise abatement to not drive everyone else in the harbor out of their minds. Unless you have unlimited boat bucks you will also need a skill set to fix the AC, genset, and more boat bucks to buy gas.


First thing I would suggest you do is assess your/your family's skill set in terms of performance sailing. While I love the way a Gunboat looks and sails there is no way I am capable of sailing it so it would be a waste for me to have one. On the other hand on my Seawind I can set a course, trim the sails, go below to use the head, and when I get back to the steering station every thing is cool.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LRSXoTdkXjk

[Dave_S]

I basically sail single handed and it is stress free and comfortable at 15kn, the sweet spot seems to be 12-16kn but it can do better.

I think 200MPH mentioned the stairs being difficult, I am a big bloke and have no issues with getting up and down the stairs. I do go down them backwards but otherwise no issue.

[44'cruisingcat]

Originally Posted by tomfl

....The point being unless you have the skill set to sail a performance boat at 15kns it really does not matter how fast the boat can sail.

Well, actually there's more reason than sailing all over the place at 15 kts to own a performance boat.

There's the ability to sail, not motor, in light winds.

There's the ability to sail effortlessly at speeds where heavier boats would need to be pushing hard.

At moderate cruising speeds, say 9 - 12 kts, there's the dramatic reduction in the loads on winches, sheets and deck gear.

If you need cover say, 100 miles in daylight, you know you don't need to wait till there's a gale warning to be able to do it...

An example:

https://youtu.be/eRAOQb0JwaI

I think most boats would be motoring.

[tp12]

Originally Posted by cwjohm

"The majority of circumnavigating boats do not have aircon" Strong statement with absolutely no evidence to back it up.

Suggest you contact the Lagoon, FP and Leopard distributors in Oz and the US and ask them how many of their boats that sail back to their homes from the factory have aircon. These three manufactures account for the vast majority of catamarans sold in the world.

Do you have any evidence to back up your position? You made the original claim regarding a/c so the burden of proof is on you.

Intuitively, there'd be more people sailing without it than with it because of the cost and maintenance of having a/c. But hey, let's see your evidence.

You know...these threads come around and you always have an issue with payload/build cost on fast cats. I think that you have a boat spec and finish in mind that is high end, heavy and expensive and you've factored in a high labour cost build, like Julian's mob who built Kato. This is my experience from previous discussions. But you can't seem to separate that others may not want what you want and therefore be able to build a boat a lot cheaper than you and that's still ok. From build location to spec ... you're risk averse in the views I've seen you present on this subject and it seems you're happy to pay to mitigate that. That's totally cool but it seems you don't acknowledge or respect that others are not so don't assume your view is 'the norm', or the only option or even, indeed, the best option.

Your differences with Alan I find very amusing. You: you can't do xyz with a performance cat... 44c: I'm doing exactly that and have been for ages.... You: Yebbut .....

Just because you can't figure out a way to make what you want happen doesn't mean that others can't. With the same tools/options/etc

[cwjohm]

Tp12. I have never written anything to indicate lack of acknowledgement or respect for the views of others, so the cheap shot is really beneath you. It was my understanding that cruisers forum was for expressing opinions. Just because I do so does not mean that I do not respect contrary views. You seem to believe that anybody who does not agree with you is automatically disrespectful.

As to Alan, I am totally in awe of what he has achieved, as I do for all people who have the time, skills and money to build their own boat. There is little that Alan says that I disagree with. However, comfort is one of those. It is simply personal preferences.

Thanks for telling me what my view is on boat spec and finish. Despite significant research I have yet to form strong views on this subject, but I will keep your opinion of what I am thinking in mind going forward.

Some people do not have the abilities to build their own boat and are forced to go to suppliers like "Julian's mob" as you so quaintly put it. Julian, by the way is a first class builder of performance boats.

I say "some people" because you claim that we are not the "norm" as you put it, even though sales of commercially manufactured boats outstrip self built boats by an enormous majority. Certainly, it appears that we are not the "norm" as far as the multihulls section goes, as every time someone makes reference to a commercially manufactured boat he is reminded that owning and sailing such boats is an inferior option.

[44'cruisingcat]

Everyone is entitled to their own opinion on comfort. But when you try to impose that on others...

The OP has NEVER mentioned the desire or need for gensets, aircon, saunas, gymnasiums...

And he DIDN'T say what you "quoted".

[Fore and Aft]

Most yachts and cats I survey here in Queensland still do not have air conditioning. Maybe 5% do, certainly at least 20% of all power boats I survey have air conditioning.
I think if you could find a low power airconditioning unit then most boats would have them here in Queensland. Why not, today was a good example, I was drenched in sweat surveying a 30 foot power boat that had bad ventilation.
As for the heavy interior I have surveyed two cats that I can think of that had interior fit outs that would not have looked out of place on the Bounty!
Cheers