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Old 24-02-2012, 11:16   #106
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Re: Explanation for the Increase in Multihull Popularity

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Deckofficer, My money's still on an Outremer 45, 50 or 55. Bet ya beer on that one. I'll probably just buy a Lagoon and be happier than a pig in hit. Beats what I got now. BTW 10" to 20" of powder predicted for tomorrow and I'm going to track it all up. Hell of a job but someone's got to do it.
Speed wise, your future Lagoon would be a good match for my future PDQ 36. Can always tell an old skier, they just love fresh powder. If done right (and old skiers know how to do it right), effortless serenity. This is me back in 1957.


Weren't you the one that commented on this picture, asking me if it was Kirkwood? It is Squaw, circa 1968.


Bob, you need to jump over to the "off topic" thread and share some of your age progression pictures, hopefully of skiing and sailing.
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Old 24-02-2012, 12:08   #107
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Re: Explanation for the Increase in Multihull Popularity

That was me. I need to scan some of my powder pics made with the previous centurys technology.
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Old 24-02-2012, 13:13   #108
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Re: Explanation for the Increase in Multihull Popularity

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Now compare the square feet of usable space on that mono to the cat and you will find that both types are fairly even in the price dept. There are plenty of fast cats. Outremer, Switch, Catana, Phisa, Freydis, Atlantic etc and lots and lots of customs. I'll bet most of these will beat just about any mono. An Outremer will smoke every mono and is very reasonable if go fast is your highest priority. And one nice thing about go-fast cats is you don't need 20 of your closest friends as rail meat.
Depends how flush you are really. Value for money mono's can't be beat.
And, funny how supposed performance diverges from what real world actually allows.
And the fact that as soon as you load it up,the speed advantage dissappears, which 90% will do by definition of the extra space.
Don't get me wrong. I am a big fan of outremmer. I am familiar with their polars and speed potential. On the wish list, along with a class 40.

I posted the link to speed track with a 55L against a Farr 1220. For 3x the money the Outremer got smoked IMHO. (That and following the tri.)
Now, cat amonsgt the pigeons....
I suspect there is "x" amount of snobbery in the multi hull brigade; To make up for the lack of heeling.........
You know....that "sailing feeling"!
Unless you have a hobie strapped to your condomaran.

Fresh powder. Like a 14sec swell from a deep depression ...makes the pulse rise!
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Old 24-02-2012, 14:04   #109
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Re: Explanation for the Increase in Multihull Popularity

Ok I give in. I gotta scan some of my old powder pics. Sometimes I would rather just be hearing some of that old Leopard bridgedeck slap. I chartered one. I know. Love it!
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Old 24-02-2012, 14:10   #110
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Re: Explanation for the Increase in Multihull Popularity

What I find remarkable:

1. cats don't heel - this is wrong, they all heel when close hauled, but they heel less than most monohulls under the same conditions. When we heel 14-16 degrees I see most cats heeling about 10 degrees, so we're talking 4-6 degrees difference. When we heel 20 degrees, the cats have had to abort the idea of going to windward like we do.

2. cats have more space - this is wrong, the boats with most space are all monohulls. I don't understand where this myth ever came from... I think from people who compare cat vs mono of the same length, which is a flawed way of comparing of course. Monohulls exist that carry 6,000 passengers or more in decadent luxury.

3. cats are faster - this is wrong, the current record for the Caribbean 1500 is still a monohull (Dashew design naturally) while all kinds of racing cats and tri's have tried to take it over the years. There are many races where cats would not win even if they would be allowed to start. It is like with so many things: context. I can think of conditions where cats would be faster and other conditions where mono's would be faster.

Many cats are faster than the average mono but also many mono's are faster than the average cruising cat, mostly because the cats are overloaded. The load carrying capacity is a tender weak point for the cats.

The main difference and the reason that cats are becoming so popular, is that cat are thought to be easier to sail. When somebody states: I might buy a sailboat but it must be easy and luxurious, most will answer to buy a cat.

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Old 24-02-2012, 14:23   #111
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Re: Explanation for the Increase in Multihull Popularity

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I think from people who compare cat vs mono of the same length, which is a flawed way of comparing of course
And why is space-for-length a flawed comparison?
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Old 24-02-2012, 14:43   #112
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Re: Explanation for the Increase in Multihull Popularity

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What I find remarkable:

1. cats don't heel - this is wrong, they all heel when close hauled, but they heel less than most monohulls under the same conditions. When we heel 14-16 degrees I see most cats heeling about 10 degrees, so we're talking 4-6 degrees difference. When we heel 20 degrees, the cats have had to abort the idea of going to windward like we do.

2. cats have more space - this is wrong, the boats with most space are all monohulls. I don't understand where this myth ever came from... I think from people who compare cat vs mono of the same length, which is a flawed way of comparing of course. Monohulls exist that carry 6,000 passengers or more in decadent luxury.

3. cats are faster - this is wrong, the current record for the Caribbean 1500 is still a monohull (Dashew design naturally) while all kinds of racing cats and tri's have tried to take it over the years. There are many races where cats would not win even if they would be allowed to start. It is like with so many things: context. I can think of conditions where cats would be faster and other conditions where mono's would be faster.

Many cats are faster than the average mono but also many mono's are faster than the average cruising cat, mostly because the cats are overloaded. The load carrying capacity is a tender weak point for the cats.

The main difference and the reason that cats are becoming so popular, is that cat are thought to be easier to sail. When somebody states: I might buy a sailboat but it must be easy and luxurious, most will answer to buy a cat.

cheers,
Nick.
Nick,

Can't and won't argue that. But, you have to admit you speak from a perspective that neither your fellow monohulled cruisers or cat cruisers have any first hand experience. The Sundeer is ungodly fast, and unlike fast multis, was designed from the keel up to be a around-the-world cruiser in all conditions. So, because of this, for any follow up replys, how about you referencing some other design mono you might have had in the past. Nobody knowledgeable is going to get into it with you when the bar you set is a Sundeer 64, or at least I won't.
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Old 24-02-2012, 14:58   #113
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Re: Explanation for the Increase in Multihull Popularity

I often wonder how many ping pong balls could be poured into a Sundeer 64.

How many for a 42' cat?

In todays winds in the gulf at 25 with seas 6' and a 5 second period I bet a nice 64' boat would be better upwind.
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Old 24-02-2012, 15:33   #114
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Re: Explanation for the Increase in Multihull Popularity

The thread simply asks "Why the increase in popularity"/, i dont see it as a comparison thread against mono's???

THE REASONS as i see them?
1) 'Modern Multi's' are the new kid on the block as far as design and layouts attracting buyer's.

2) 'Actual use' 80-90% of ownership is spent sitting at anchor or in a Marina.

3) 'Docking' multi's props have a large separation allowing easy berthing, yes windage is a negative factor.

4) 'Marketing' more so into Charter operations. The Caribbean suits them so well hence Tui Marine, Moorings etal.

5) 'Re-sale' i think quite good because available volume is still lower than demand.

6) 'Family appeal' separation of cabins by a good distance with a common lounge,dining, galley area lets people spread out without a claustrophobic feeling.

7) 'Cruising with friends' allows up to 4 couples to cruise together with seperate shower toilets and a feeling of privacy.

8) 'Deck room' sunbaking, fishing whatever, people on board have the room to enjoy without getting in the way of sheetropes, winches, booms etc.

9) 'Safety' They don't see headlines talking of yet another family killed in one of those highly dangerous multi-hulls, this type of scuttlebutt doesn't come into their equation as if it was true FP, Lagoon, Seawind etc would not be prosperous companies with fantastic sales records over LONG periods of time.

10)'Comfort' just like home, vases on benches, CD cases left on table tops and they all stay there....

That's ten reasons that the average family probably consider, they are not necessarily those that drove me as i come from a STRONG mono background however they may be valid......
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Old 24-02-2012, 15:57   #115
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Re: Explanation for the Increase in Multihull Popularity

Explanation for the Increase in Multihull Popularity.....................


Errr....doesn't have anything to do wth the short comings of monohulls does it?
Lifes a compromise, so we love our leadmine!
BTW Nick, how does your Sundeer beach?
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Old 24-02-2012, 16:05   #116
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And why is space-for-length a flawed comparison?
Because cats are far wider be design, which also makes them more expensive to buy, to dock and to put on the hard.

Fair comparison would be same price to buy, same docking cost or similar. Same "length x width" is another way to go.

P.s. I also see the argument of going down below vs cockpit and the multi's solve that by allowing to be inside on deck level. That one isn't true either, many mono's with pilothouse or deck saloons exist.

cheers,
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Old 24-02-2012, 16:11   #117
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Bob,

You know I'm in the multi camp, and more for the reasons of shallow draft, space, level sailing, and being comfortable in a rolling anchorage, but speed is not one of them. Just like the yarn the mono folks pull about multis flipping, we spin the same yarn on speed. Now I'm talking comfortable speed that you would hold 24/7 on a passage. I know of (3) monos that would be faster, an old Cal 40 (I had one), Santa Cruz 50 (they always beat me), and a Sundeer 64 (Nick, S/V Jedi). I'm sure there are more, but given a passage to be completed by a family (so no over canvasing), my money would be on these 3 monos for dropping hook first at the destination. Ask Nick what kind of speeds he runs, and he is an older guy like us.
Thanks Bob. The speed thing seems to be a hot button for most cat owners. Hey ai lust after a cat but not for racing speed. And I've been on enough monos and raced against cruising cats and as I qualified before, dollar for dollar you can get a faster mono.

In regattas and passages the cat closes up but if there are any windward lewards forget it.

Now at the end of the day I'd definitely prefer my sundowners on the "terrace" thank you very much...
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Old 24-02-2012, 16:34   #118
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Nick,

Can't and won't argue that. But, you have to admit you speak from a perspective that neither your fellow monohulled cruisers or cat cruisers have any first hand experience. The Sundeer is ungodly fast, and unlike fast multis, was designed from the keel up to be a around-the-world cruiser in all conditions. So, because of this, for any follow up replys, how about you referencing some other design mono you might have had in the past. Nobody knowledgeable is going to get into it with you when the bar you set is a Sundeer 64, or at least I won't.
It's difficult. If I come up with Hunter vs Prout, all the multihullers will protest and they are quick to come up with Gunboats and Outremers which are really racers when you look at their interiors.

So, how about Bene First 47.7 vs a Lagoon 38? 38 * 1.5 = 57 (1.5 being the factor used by many marinas) so the cat has the advantage but the First might compensate by being more performance oriented?

Also, it is always about upwind sailing; the rest is all a matter of guts on how much sail area you dare to hoist.

All the boats I sailed before Jedi were in Holland / North Sea area and there are very few cats there, so I can't compare. And as you say, comparing with a Sundeer is not average. But neither is the Gunboat and Outremer IMO.

I read from other reactions that interior volume means something (pingpong balls) but that does'n't work either, just look at a Hunter vs Westsail for example: very different ratios yet both monohulls.

May be price of new boat equal for mono vs multi?

On this thread not being about multi vs mono: it is of course; popularity is about comparisons.

cheers,
Nick.
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Old 24-02-2012, 16:40   #119
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Explanation for the Increase in Multihull Popularity.....................

Errr....doesn't have anything to do wth the short comings of monohulls does it?
Lifes a compromise, so we love our leadmine!
BTW Nick, how does your Sundeer beach?
Actually... it was designed to do so. It will stand on keel and rudder with some stilts or a post etc.

Beaching cats isn't done so often I think; in Holland when you look at beached boats as the tide runs out, 99% are monohulls.

cheers,
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Old 24-02-2012, 16:45   #120
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Re: Explanation for the Increase in Multihull Popularity

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Thanks Bob. The speed thing seems to be a hot button for most cat owners. Hey ai lust after a cat but not for racing speed. And I've been on enough monos and raced against cruising cats and as I qualified before, dollar for dollar you can get a faster mono.

In regattas and passages the cat closes up but if there are any windward lewards forget it.

Now at the end of the day I'd definitely prefer my sundowners on the "terrace" thank you very much...
Dan what is your boat now? A Maxi???? Cheers Frank
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