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Old 27-02-2012, 07:55   #211
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Re: Explanation for the Increase in Multihull Popularity

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Originally Posted by smj View Post
That's quite an impressive list of cats you've sailed. Are you a surveyor and were most these sails sea trials?
I would agree that the majority of cats built today are built around luxury and not performance. The older British cats were definitely overbuilt and under rigged and the charter boats probably the same but you mentioned a few cats that should be great performers. Namely the Shuttleworths, Daz cats and the Le rouge designs. How would you rate these as performance boats.
There's no doubt there are some cats that are dogs out there but to think they are all that way.......
Rtd marine professional p/t - surveyor and project manager.

The Shuttleworh well one owner was anal about weight weighed EVERY item before it went on the boat

The wingsail rotating mast 48 foot INOUI was AWESOME i am sure we were flying a hull at 30 knots.

Got 25 knots out of a Catana 471 and i do/did like Catana's (not been on one of the new build models though) i am not happy with the helm position though.

I hate to mention the condo word BUT now it is all about interior/exterior space and design (to appeal to the ladies - great marketing ploy) i am sure JS has a fit when he looks at a L400 an aerodynamic brick wall BUT this is what the market demands for a 10 day potter round the VI's and other similar destinations. Sunsail/Moorings are only interested in managing the fleet not owning it.............so we are going to have many many non (performing) sailing cats around and it will be upto the private owners to keep the performance side of the cat business alive/afloat. Not a wonderful business model and obviously of little interest to the Beneteau conglomeration which is a shame as CNB were heavily into performance boats a few years ago.

For me speed is overrated on cats...................and the fast ones............well you have to slow down as you cant make an open sea passage at 20 knots if you want to be able to walk and talk at the end of it. Speed in light winds and having something in hand when you want some excitement in flat water is more what matters to me in a cat and of course being able to sail fast slowly/easily. One smaller Lerouge cat i know of comes across the Atlantic both ways and never hoists the mainsail just jogs along at 8/9/10 knots with the foresail or asymmetric up.

And yes for a while the Lagoon 55/57 was the bees knees but now BIG Luxury cats are everywhere i dont know where they are going to stop. The Matrix Silhouette is a lovely boat. The new megga yacht is a 100+ foot catamaran - so maybe CNB will get in there too. I cant wait to see what Roman Abramavitch builds after Eclipse - a Megga Yacht Cat? for sure it will be something awesome
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Old 27-02-2012, 10:29   #212
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Re: Explanation for the Increase in Multihull Popularity

Rather than monohull owners theorizing on the reasons for the increase in popularity of multihulls, e.g. an experience chartering (or the number available off the charter market), or advertising hype (afterall, they are inferior to monhulls so it must be that), perhaps there would be a benefit in actual owners of multihulls describing their intended use for their boats and why they chose a multihull? You know, actual imput from people who put their money where their mouths were and why they did it?

I can start by saying: 1. I have never chartered a cat, so that did not play into my decision. 2. The cat I purchased did not come off the charter market, nor was it designed for the charter market. 3. Advertising hype played no part in my decision. Rather, it was a decision I made after considerable research and determining that, after owning a series of monohulls, a cat was the best compromise for my next boat and its intended use.

I wanted a boat primarily for cruising in the Caribbean with my wife and occasional guests. However, we are also in the process of developing a small, boutique beachfront resort in the Caribbean and wanted a boat for taking out guests on some short sunset cruises and snorkellling trips in conjunction with the business. Finally, after the business has been up and running for a few years, my wife and I intend to take the boat to Europe for 18 months and then return to Isla Margarita, all via trade-wind routes.

Whether others agree with my assessment or not, here are what I see as the advantages for a catamaran (and in particular, the catamaran we purchased) for our needs:

1. The shoal draft of a catamaran opens up additional cruising grounds and enables anchoring closer to shore. It also enables us to pick up guests in shallow water in front of our beach, by means of a removable ladder off the crossbeam to the central walkway that divides our forward trampolines.

2. The additional deckspace/cockpit area is pefect for carrying additional guests.

3. Even with the risks of skin cancer, my wife and I like to sun occasionally and the forward trampolines provide a perfect area both under anchor and while sailing in moderate conditions.

4. Being able to 'go below' in order to get drinks/snacks without having to navigate a steep and often angled companionway ladder is a boon to not only this aging sailor, but also to our occasional landlubber guests.

5. The relative lack of heeling makes for increased comfort/safety for our non-sailor guests, particularly on our boat with its forward walkway and full-width bow pulpit.

6. The 'dated-looking' tiered decks and coachroof on our cat reduce windage, but they also provide a much shorter (and safer) boarding height and a place forward and along the sides for guests to sit while underway. This distributes weight more evenly and reduces crowding in the cockpit when sailing with a number of guests.

7. The twin LAR keels with shoes allow our boat to be beached for underbody maintenance without the need for a haulout. In the real world of sailing, a clean bottom can improve performance significantly.

8. The interior is not only more spacious than a monohull of comparable length, it is also IMO more practical:
- I have a full size chart table/nav station that allows someone seated to have virtually a 360 degree view around the boat. Yes, this is available in some pilothouse monohulls (although in my Cartwright 36 Pilothouse I had to stand to see from the chart table), but it is a valuable feature in any boat. For a cruising couple, it allows the person on-watch to maintain visibility around the boat (and the trim of the headsail) even when you need to go below to use the SSB/VHF, make log entries, etc.
- There is also virtually 360 degree visiblity while eating/seated in the main saloon. Amongst other things, when under anchor it permits crew to watch for other boats that may be dragging down on you without the need to go up on deck. It also makes for a much brighter and less cave-like interior.
- My galley down (open to the saloon to permit interraction with others) is fully 12 feet long with counters on both sides. Apart from comodious storage and prep space, the relative lack of heeling makes meal preparation easier than in a monohull (I don't miss the need for a gimballed stove/oven); and, when the going gets rough you are braced in on both sides.
- The three double staterooms all have hanging lockers, seats, multiple cabinets with shelves and two of them have generous ensuite head compartments. Furthermore, unlike the aft cabins of many monohulls where headroom is seriously compromised by the intrusion of the cockpit well, there is at least 50 inches of headroom and a large opening hatch above all of the berths on my boat. Finally, for increased privacy, the staterooms are all separated from each other by either the cockpit or at least 10 feet of floor space.
- Our boat has a separate compartment with a bath tub and shower. Lest you consider a tub to be a waste of space in a 40 foot boat, I can tell you of the following advantages: when it is too rough to safely shower on board, it is nice to be able to rinse off the salt in a tub; it is also nice for occasionally soaking sore muscles (and for someone with two herniated discs in his lumbar region, it is occasionally nice to soak in a hot tub regardless). Since there is a large hatch to the foredeck above the tub, it is a great place to throw down a wet spinnaker/clothes (and there is dedicated storage for the spinnaker in front of the tub).
- there is seating for 10 - yes, six at the table and four on two separate settees in the saloon. In conjunction with the large and convenient galley, it is great for entertaining. Remember, my wife and I plan on living aboard for relatively extended periods and we do not expect to change our habits more than necessary while cruising. At home we enjoy cooking together and entertaining and this boat will allow us to do the same.

9. When sailing is relatively protected waters it is nice to be able to carry your inflatable on davits: so carried, the inflatable receives some additional protection from the portion of the hulls that extend aft of the bridgedeck.

10. The additional beam permits much more area for installing solar panels.

11. Most catamarans are better sailing boats than most monohulls off the wind. This is so because the additional beam and twin rudders virtually eliminate wallowing and the risk of a broach (it is also why some new monohulls are attempting to approximate this attribute by extending beam aft and installing twin rudders). Furthermore, a symmetrical spinnaker becomes a legitimate crusing sail for the non-athletic cruising couple. Due to the elimination of a pole and wide beam, in order to jibe/gybe one need only let off on the tack on the windward side, haul in on the tack on the (new) windward side and adjust the sheets. My boat wil run/reach comfortably at half wind speed up about 18 knots of wind. In a boat that is intended primarily for tradewind sailing this is extremely important. In addition, my timetable (or more to the point, lack of a timetable) will allow me to wait for favourable winds before most passages.

12. Although my boat is admittedly no demon to windward, she is nevertheless quite acceptable for my intended use. Unlike some older cats, she tacks readily through 90 degrees - although speed, comfort and VMG improve if I bear off to about 50 - 55 degrees from the true wind. This increases speed, again to virtually 50% of wind velocity, and virtually eliminates pounding in most conditions. In any event, at my age I am much less enamoured with long beats to windward than when I was younger. Of course, if I am ever in a hurry, what makes a better motorsailor than a cat with her twin diesels?

13. There are various aspects of the design/construction of my cat that IMO, make her especially well-suited for in-season, trade-wind Atlantic crossings:
- bullet-proof construction to Llloyd's 100 A! unlimited offshore standards
- cutter rig with dedicated, roller reefing staysail/storm jib
- rudders on partial skegs, sacrifical below the skegs to provide protection from debris etc.
- relatively small cockpit with relatively small (non-sliding), 1/2 inch thick tempered, safety glass companionway door
- angled chines forward (match angle of bows in extremis) provide additional bouyancy, reduce hobby-horsing
- shoes on keels.

Anway, those are the features which led me to the purchase of my current boat - my first catamaran. All boats are compromises and she provided, IMO, the best compromise for our current needs and ages. The needs and priorities of others, will of course, vary.

Cheers!

Brad
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Old 27-02-2012, 11:32   #213
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Re: Explanation for the Increase in Multihull Popularity

Brad,

Very well stated support of your decision to choose and sail a catamaran.

They echo many of my own reasons for choosing a catamaran.

Marshall
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Old 27-02-2012, 11:46   #214
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Re: Explanation for the Increase in Multihull Popularity

Darwin at work. First they swim. Then they fly.
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Old 27-02-2012, 12:34   #215
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Re: Explanation for the Increase in Multihull Popularity

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Darwin at work. First they swim. Then they fly.
OK what happened next?
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Old 27-02-2012, 13:49   #216
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Re: Explanation for the Increase in Multihull Popularity

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Originally Posted by Southern Star View Post
Rather than monohull owners theorizing on the reasons for the increase in popularity of multihulls, e.g. an experience chartering (or the number available off the charter market), or advertising hype (afterall, they are inferior to monhulls so it must be that), perhaps there would be a benefit in actual owners of multihulls describing their intended use for their boats and why they chose a multihull? You know, actual imput from people who put their money where their mouths were and why they did it?

I can start by saying: 1. I have never chartered a cat, so that did not play into my decision. 2. The cat I purchased did not come off the charter market, nor was it designed for the charter market. 3. Advertising hype played no part in my decision. Rather, it was a decision I made after considerable research and determining that, after owning a series of monohulls, a cat was the best compromise for my next boat and its intended use.

I wanted a boat primarily for cruising in the Caribbean with my wife and occasional guests. However, we are also in the process of developing a small, boutique beachfront resort in the Caribbean and wanted a boat for taking out guests on some short sunset cruises and snorkellling trips in conjunction with the business. Finally, after the business has been up and running for a few years, my wife and I intend to take the boat to Europe for 18 months and then return to Isla Margarita, all via trade-wind routes.

Whether others agree with my assessment or not, here are what I see as the advantages for a catamaran (and in particular, the catamaran we purchased) for our needs:

1. The shoal draft of a catamaran opens up additional cruising grounds and enables anchoring closer to shore. It also enables us to pick up guests in shallow water in front of our beach, by means of a removable ladder off the crossbeam to the central walkway that divides our forward trampolines.

2. The additional deckspace/cockpit area is pefect for carrying additional guests.

3. Even with the risks of skin cancer, my wife and I like to sun occasionally and the forward trampolines provide a perfect area both under anchor and while sailing in moderate conditions.

4. Being able to 'go below' in order to get drinks/snacks without having to navigate a steep and often angled companionway ladder is a boon to not only this aging sailor, but also to our occasional landlubber guests.

5. The relative lack of heeling makes for increased comfort/safety for our non-sailor guests, particularly on our boat with its forward walkway and full-width bow pulpit.

6. The 'dated-looking' tiered decks and coachroof on our cat reduce windage, but they also provide a much shorter (and safer) boarding height and a place forward and along the sides for guests to sit while underway. This distributes weight more evenly and reduces crowding in the cockpit when sailing with a number of guests.

7. The twin LAR keels with shoes allow our boat to be beached for underbody maintenance without the need for a haulout. In the real world of sailing, a clean bottom can improve performance significantly.

8. The interior is not only more spacious than a monohull of comparable length, it is also IMO more practical:
- I have a full size chart table/nav station that allows someone seated to have virtually a 360 degree view around the boat. Yes, this is available in some pilothouse monohulls (although in my Cartwright 36 Pilothouse I had to stand to see from the chart table), but it is a valuable feature in any boat. For a cruising couple, it allows the person on-watch to maintain visibility around the boat (and the trim of the headsail) even when you need to go below to use the SSB/VHF, make log entries, etc.
- There is also virtually 360 degree visiblity while eating/seated in the main saloon. Amongst other things, when under anchor it permits crew to watch for other boats that may be dragging down on you without the need to go up on deck. It also makes for a much brighter and less cave-like interior.
- My galley down (open to the saloon to permit interraction with others) is fully 12 feet long with counters on both sides. Apart from comodious storage and prep space, the relative lack of heeling makes meal preparation easier than in a monohull (I don't miss the need for a gimballed stove/oven); and, when the going gets rough you are braced in on both sides.
- The three double staterooms all have hanging lockers, seats, multiple cabinets with shelves and two of them have generous ensuite head compartments. Furthermore, unlike the aft cabins of many monohulls where headroom is seriously compromised by the intrusion of the cockpit well, there is at least 50 inches of headroom and a large opening hatch above all of the berths on my boat. Finally, for increased privacy, the staterooms are all separated from each other by either the cockpit or at least 10 feet of floor space.
- Our boat has a separate compartment with a bath tub and shower. Lest you consider a tub to be a waste of space in a 40 foot boat, I can tell you of the following advantages: when it is too rough to safely shower on board, it is nice to be able to rinse off the salt in a tub; it is also nice for occasionally soaking sore muscles (and for someone with two herniated discs in his lumbar region, it is occasionally nice to soak in a hot tub regardless). Since there is a large hatch to the foredeck above the tub, it is a great place to throw down a wet spinnaker/clothes (and there is dedicated storage for the spinnaker in front of the tub).
- there is seating for 10 - yes, six at the table and four on two separate settees in the saloon. In conjunction with the large and convenient galley, it is great for entertaining. Remember, my wife and I plan on living aboard for relatively extended periods and we do not expect to change our habits more than necessary while cruising. At home we enjoy cooking together and entertaining and this boat will allow us to do the same.

9. When sailing is relatively protected waters it is nice to be able to carry your inflatable on davits: so carried, the inflatable receives some additional protection from the portion of the hulls that extend aft of the bridgedeck.

10. The additional beam permits much more area for installing solar panels.

11. Most catamarans are better sailing boats than most monohulls off the wind. This is so because the additional beam and twin rudders virtually eliminate wallowing and the risk of a broach (it is also why some new monohulls are attempting to approximate this attribute by extending beam aft and installing twin rudders). Furthermore, a symmetrical spinnaker becomes a legitimate crusing sail for the non-athletic cruising couple. Due to the elimination of a pole and wide beam, in order to jibe/gybe one need only let off on the tack on the windward side, haul in on the tack on the (new) windward side and adjust the sheets. My boat wil run/reach comfortably at half wind speed up about 18 knots of wind. In a boat that is intended primarily for tradewind sailing this is extremely important. In addition, my timetable (or more to the point, lack of a timetable) will allow me to wait for favourable winds before most passages.

12. Although my boat is admittedly no demon to windward, she is nevertheless quite acceptable for my intended use. Unlike some older cats, she tacks readily through 90 degrees - although speed, comfort and VMG improve if I bear off to about 50 - 55 degrees from the true wind. This increases speed, again to virtually 50% of wind velocity, and virtually eliminates pounding in most conditions. In any event, at my age I am much less enamoured with long beats to windward than when I was younger. Of course, if I am ever in a hurry, what makes a better motorsailor than a cat with her twin diesels?

13. There are various aspects of the design/construction of my cat that IMO, make her especially well-suited for in-season, trade-wind Atlantic crossings:
- bullet-proof construction to Llloyd's 100 A! unlimited offshore standards
- cutter rig with dedicated, roller reefing staysail/storm jib
- rudders on partial skegs, sacrifical below the skegs to provide protection from debris etc.
- relatively small cockpit with relatively small (non-sliding), 1/2 inch thick tempered, safety glass companionway door
- angled chines forward (match angle of bows in extremis) provide additional bouyancy, reduce hobby-horsing
- shoes on keels.

Anway, those are the features which led me to the purchase of my current boat - my first catamaran. All boats are compromises and she provided, IMO, the best compromise for our current needs and ages. The needs and priorities of others, will of course, vary.

Cheers!

Brad

Interesting and the Solaris is a boat i know very well - for sure an acquired taste and hardly for your average modern multihull buyer. Certainly has little appeal to the ladies as it is about as far from a modern cats as it is possible to be.

yea built to Lloyds 100 A1 standards - Had your bulkheads detach from the hulls yet?

What a shame you could not resist moving into monhull performance and design issues

Most catamarans are better sailing boats than most monohulls off the wind.

REALLY!!!! tell that to the Dashhew'sand any owner of a modern production cruiser racer.

This is so because the additional beam and twin rudders virtually eliminate wallowing and the risk of a broach

Cant agree with any of that - wonky thinking!!!


(it is also why some new monohulls are attempting to approximate this attribute by extending beam aft and installing twin rudders).

TOTAL POPPYCOCK


Furthermore, a symmetrical spinnaker becomes a legitimate crusing sail for the non-athletic cruising couple. Due to the elimination of a pole and wide beam, in order to jibe/gybe one need only let off on the tack on the windward side, haul in on the tack on the (new) windward side and adjust the sheets.

So how do you think you do that on a monohull?

My boat wil run/reach comfortably at half wind speed up about 18 knots of wind.

NEVER!!! run at 9 knots in 18 knots TWS - true fantasy land


In a boat that is intended primarily for tradewind sailing this is extremely important. In addition, my timetable (or more to the point, lack of a timetable) will allow me to wait for favourable winds before most passages.


You might be surprised to hear that is what most long term cruisers do - i am surrounded by them sitting in Simpson Lagoon St Martin ATM with a 25/30 knot forecast with so many cruisers waiting for that weather to pass and get a nice weather window for moving west and south

Finally motorsailing with twin deisels - as another cat owner pointed out only means you use twice as much diesel fuel
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Old 27-02-2012, 14:09   #217
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Re: Explanation for the Increase in Multihull Popularity

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Darwin at work. First they swim. Then they fly.
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Old 27-02-2012, 14:14   #218
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Re: Explanation for the Increase in Multihull Popularity

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Gee, how hard is it to read and understand me:




So, she can never race in class racing (not allowed in) and she can never win in handicap races because the design and systems are considered to give her an unfair advantage. You also seemed to have missed that I wrote that races are normally concentrated on upwind performance, while the Sundeer was designed on broad reaching performance, with upwind performance a weaker point for her length (I stated single digit speeds)

cheers,
Nick.
So you're claiming that your boat wouldn't be allowed to race in the Sydney-Hobart, because it's too fast? (yet canting keel motorboats are allowed in)

Sounds like a multihull to me!
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Old 27-02-2012, 14:14   #219
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Re: Explanation for the Increase in Multihull Popularity

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OK what happened next?
They discovered warp drive and mated with green women.
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Old 27-02-2012, 14:27   #220
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Re: Explanation for the Increase in Multihull Popularity

As far as i know you can enter a "Sundeer" in the Sydney to Hobart provided design/safety equip is in order. The handicapping system would preclude winning HOWEVER in the run for line honours is just that, LINE HONOURS. Wonder if any have?

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Old 27-02-2012, 14:35   #221
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Re: Explanation for the Increase in Multihull Popularity

HF, I'd love to hear of your extensive experience with the Solaris Sunstream 40 - which of the 14 built did you sail on extensively? There are absolutely zero stress cracks on my hull and bridgedeck and zero separation of the heavily tabbed bulkheads from the hull. Indeed, I am not aware of any Sunstream 40's that have had this problem. Again, what are the hull numbers of the various Sunstream 40's that had such a problem so as to lead you to suggest that it is an endemic problem - i.e.,, has it happened yet? Speaking of 'poppycock'!

Furthermore, are you really suggesting that increased beam, reduced heeling and twin rudders does not reduce rolling and the risk of a broach? Are you really denying that twin rudders on a cat tend to keep 'biting' better than a single rudder on a monohull, which tends to lose effectiveness as the boat heels after being hit in the rear quarter in a following sea? Have you sailed both downwind in boisterous conditions?

Are you actually suggesting that the elimination of a pole does not make gybing a spinnaker much, much easier? Have you ever tried it without a pole? And which Solaris Sunstream 40 did you sail on with a symmetrical spinnaker so that you can deny my 9 knots boat speed in 18 knots of wind?

As to your insulting suggestion that my boat 'wouldn't appeal to the ladies', where does that fit in with this discussion? Except perhaps as another example of the fact that you have no intention of advancing the discussion at hand - the reasons for the increasse in multihull popularity, and rather have the sole intention of attacking others and their choice in boats, with or without a factual foundation.

Kindest regards,

Brad
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Old 27-02-2012, 14:44   #222
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Re: Explanation for the Increase in Multihull Popularity

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Furthermore, a symmetrical spinnaker becomes a legitimate crusing sail for the non-athletic cruising couple. Due to the elimination of a pole and wide beam, in order to jibe/gybe one need only let off on the tack on the windward side, haul in on the tack on the (new) windward side and adjust the sheets.

So how do you think you do that on a monohull?

My boat wil run/reach comfortably at half wind speed up about 18 knots of wind.

NEVER!!! run at 9 knots in 18 knots TWS - true fantasy land



Finally motorsailing with twin deisels - as another cat owner pointed out only means you use twice as much diesel fuel
Of course you can choose to run only one engine. Or didn't you think of that?

How do you fly a symmetrical spinnaker on your mono? Don't you use sheets, guys and A POLE? Cat's don't need a spinnaker pole, so gybing is much easier.
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Old 27-02-2012, 15:00   #223
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Re: Explanation for the Increase in Multihull Popularity

Of course you can choose to run only one engine. Or didn't you think of that?

Lol we call it the spare....

LIFE IS NOT A RACE!
Cannot see how HF's contributions other than his one alluding to volume as in the amount available have been positive?

Yes the thread was about a child swinging in the cockpit of a cat underway BUT the title attracted comment becvause it was a positive theme.

Then along comes postings the virulent negative crap, WHY???.

If someone who lives aboard their boat dare post a performance figure they are shot down in flames, perhaps a keyboard warrior looking for an argument methinks?

Speed is highly overrated to a cruiser, a good cruising cat, NOT overloaded, is a handy boat, our boat is not an ex-charter boat and i know no one that owns an ex-charter boat. Some people don't seem to understand it's a big world out there the Caribbean is just a small part of it, albeit a very nice part.
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Old 27-02-2012, 15:16   #224
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Re: Explanation for the Increase in Multihull Popularity

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Of course you can choose to run only one engine. Or didn't you think of that?

Lol we call it the spare....

LIFE IS NOT A RACE!
Cannot see how HF's contributions other than his one alluding to volume as in the amount available have been positive?

Yes the thread was about a child swinging in the cockpit of a cat underway BUT the title attracted comment becvause it was a positive theme.

Then along comes postings the virulent negative crap, WHY???.

If someone who lives aboard their boat dare post a performance figure they are shot down in flames, perhaps a keyboard warrior looking for an argument methinks?

Speed is highly overrated to a cruiser, a good cruising cat, NOT overloaded, is a handy boat, our boat is not an ex-charter boat and i know no one that owns an ex-charter boat. Some people don't seem to understand it's a big world out there the Caribbean is just a small part of it, albeit a very nice part.

Don't think the Caribbean is the place to go to see the best corals and fish though. Just might be better closer to home. Fun time, plenty to meet, lots of boats and great, great rum.

Performance is everything and life is a race to racing sailers not cruisers.
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Old 27-02-2012, 15:18   #225
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Re: Explanation for the Increase in Multihull Popularity

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Originally Posted by downunder View Post
Don't think the Caribbean is the place to go to see the best corals and fish though. Just might be better closer to home. fun time plenty to meet and great rum.

Performance is everything and life is a race to racing sailers not cruisers.
Some of the best i've seen was around East Black Reef not that far from you......
Cheers
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